Susanna and Graham battle the tears as they debunk what took place in the 2023 World Cup final between Spain and England, including all that drama around Jorge Vilda. The duo also discuss teams of the tournaments, who should have won the golden ball and what this World Cup has done for nations around the world in bringing football fans together.
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00:00 Welcome back to the WSL show with myself, Susanna Seely and National World and Scotsman
00:04 writer Graham Fork for what I'm imagining to be quite a sad episode today.
00:11 Obviously the main story point is yesterday where we saw England suffer their first competitive
00:19 loss under Serena Wiegmann.
00:21 It also just so happened to be the World Cup final.
00:25 So 1-0 to Spain.
00:26 Graham, what are your first thoughts about it?
00:31 As an England fan I guess I've been in three finals really recent, including the men and
00:36 women together.
00:38 I was at the Euro final last year and it was like, I don't know, when England won last
00:43 year when we won at the Euros it was like, what happens now?
00:46 Have we won football?
00:48 And then when you get to the final of the World Cup you're like, we haven't won football,
00:51 hang on, but we can win football if we try.
00:55 I don't know, I mean, when England lost against Italy I was inconsolable because it was penalties,
01:02 it was quite an even game.
01:04 Am I sad?
01:06 Yeah, I'm actually really gutted about yesterday, but I can't sit there and go, if only this
01:13 had happened, if that had happened.
01:15 You can look at them all hitting the bar and stuff, but Spain were just a better team and
01:19 I think it really mirrored the game we had against them in the Euros where I thought
01:22 we were the better side for about 75 minutes of the 120 and then Toon equalises and the
01:29 whole momentum changes and you're at home and that was a real moment in the Euros run
01:35 where you felt, oh, hang on a minute, we've just beat a good Spain team.
01:39 I thought the Spanish were really good.
01:41 I thought Bon Martà was excellent.
01:43 I think Hermoso is annoying in the way that she plays.
01:48 She's aggressive, she's strong, she sticks her middle finger up to Chloe Kelly, which
01:52 is a winner.
01:53 She's a real winner and whether you like it or not, she was tremendous.
01:56 I just think, I'm sure we'll get onto it, but the overriding emotion of it from an English
02:00 perspective is we were beaten by the better team and that hurts.
02:04 Really hurts, it stings actually.
02:05 I was really hurt by it.
02:07 I didn't speak for a while afterwards because it meant a lot and I think it meant a lot
02:11 to a lot of people.
02:12 But fair play to Spain.
02:16 They were the better team.
02:18 They probably deserved it.
02:19 My tip Spain to win it in England to be the runners up and I said Australia would get
02:22 to the semifinals.
02:23 I didn't say Sweden, but I said America.
02:24 So I was almost 100% correct, but it's no real consolation.
02:30 I think it's just a shame that, and I'm sure we'll get onto it a little bit more, the Spanish
02:34 Federation deemed it the appropriate time to say, "Vilda in."
02:38 I'm very much, and I think a lot of Spanish people are still very much, "Vilda out."
02:42 That win was for the players, not for him.
02:45 Yeah.
02:46 If you don't mind me bringing it up just now, obviously I think it could be a whole podcast
02:51 or a whole podcast series in itself, especially to do with a lot of the Spanish team are now
02:56 asking FIFA just in general to be listening to what Women's Football Federation is saying.
03:02 But obviously this has been very much a Spanish win for the Spanish players and I think most
03:07 people are going to be hammering that home.
03:09 There's also evidence that initially, straight after, Jorge Vilda was not surrounded by all
03:16 his players.
03:17 He didn't suddenly sprint onto the pitch.
03:19 That happened slightly later with once again, some fans saying that that was almost relatively
03:24 insensitive.
03:25 Also, I do apologize.
03:26 I did shut a door, but it keeps swinging open.
03:29 So if you hear it banging, then I do apologize.
03:32 Is that you opening the doors?
03:34 Is that you as a woman just opening the doors?
03:36 I'm just so proud.
03:37 But yeah, so what is, if you could give a sort of brief explanation to listeners who
03:43 may not know what's going on.
03:45 I think from a perspective of, there's a really good article, I explained it really well by
03:49 yourself Susana online.
03:52 But obviously there was 15 Spanish players.
03:54 A few of them have since come back.
03:57 That basically because of conditions, shall we say, to keep myself 100% legally safe,
04:03 weren't necessarily good for the Spanish team.
04:05 And that comes from the coaching of the players and how they felt about the coaching and the
04:09 training sessions.
04:10 Through to what they felt was like a lack of privacy.
04:12 There's a lot of stuff out there which you can really dig deep into, but that's the basics
04:16 of it.
04:17 And that Spanish team was missing some huge names like Mappileon, arguably the best center
04:23 half in the world, give or take, isn't there.
04:25 And I think for players of that quality to miss out on a tournament, a World Cup, the
04:32 first World Cup based on principles, how bad can it be?
04:35 I know some came back and you can use it as a counter argument, but watch how many of
04:40 them, many of those players celebrate with the staff and make your own mind up on it.
04:46 I thought the tweet afterwards was just awful.
04:50 Saying Vilderoyn, like this is not about him.
04:54 Like people can disagree with me and say, well, he was the manager and there's nothing
04:58 that that win wasn't for him.
05:00 And the Spanish players have said as much.
05:02 I know many Spain fans who will give you a big old run down on that.
05:08 And let me tell you, they don't see the win for Vilder.
05:11 They see the win for Spain.
05:14 And I think some people have attacked, obviously, Bonmarie, Pateas for coming back.
05:20 And as some people have said, not standing by the same rules as Mappileon.
05:24 And I do understand where people are coming from, but you're asking professional players,
05:28 the best players in the world to miss out on winning the World Cup because of one or
05:31 two men.
05:34 I understand both viewpoints.
05:36 But one thing I'm certain on, disagree with me or not, I don't mind, that win wasn't for
05:40 Vilder.
05:41 That win was for the Spanish players and they won it for him.
05:45 Yeah, they really won it for themselves.
05:49 And I think, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people are also saying that it's rare for
05:55 fans outside of England to want England to win.
05:58 But I think a lot of female football fans were sort of half hoping England might just
06:02 because it would sort of push Vilder out.
06:06 That's not the case.
06:07 And we'll see what happens from that.
06:08 But coming to England, we had a couple of substitutions at halftime, which I have.
06:16 I didn't want to say at the time because, you know, in Serena we trust.
06:21 I didn't really agree with the changes.
06:25 Bring them on.
06:26 I thought they might come on slightly later in the match.
06:28 I think bringing them on at halftime is a bit rogue.
06:32 But did you think about Lauren James and Chloe Kelly coming on, especially Alessia Russo
06:37 going off?
06:43 Serena's a better manager than I ever will be.
06:45 Technically she's better.
06:47 I'm literally just a journalist.
06:49 I couldn't coach that team if my life depended on it.
06:52 But I do have an opinion and I hope it's valid.
06:57 I didn't understand bringing on.
06:59 I think hindsight's a good thing.
07:00 I said start a la toon.
07:01 I'm not going to change my mind on that.
07:05 Hindsight we should have played Lauren James in the 10 and kept the formation the same
07:07 in my personal opinion.
07:09 But hindsight's wonderful and I would have made the same mistake if I was the boss.
07:13 I just didn't understand bringing on Chloe Kelly who puts in a wonderful set across us
07:17 a few times and there's no one in the box to get on the end of it.
07:21 I didn't think Alessia had the best game.
07:23 Don't get me wrong.
07:24 I really don't.
07:27 But I just think the first half wasn't for her.
07:29 It was like long balls over the top which you want her to chase on to which is not really
07:33 her game.
07:34 She's better in my opinion holding up and getting in the box.
07:36 So getting the ball into her feet so she can lay off and then if you get the balls to the
07:40 wings then she gets in the box and attacks the cross.
07:42 I felt like we got two wingers on there that could put a good ball in.
07:46 We took off someone who could get on the end of it and it nullified us a bit I think.
07:52 In my opinion, and it's just that Serena got it wrong for maybe the first time, we looked
07:57 actually more dangerous when Millie Bright went up front because you had a focal point
08:00 to hit.
08:02 I wouldn't have took Rachel Daly off.
08:03 I thought she was doing quite well against Batya compared to the rest of the team who
08:07 were getting a bit dominated by that possession-based styling and whatnot.
08:12 But I think if I'm being honest, do I see anything change in that game yesterday?
08:18 No.
08:19 Spain were just on it.
08:20 I said from, I was really confident going into it.
08:23 I thought we were the better team.
08:24 I said on the show on Thursday or Wednesday that I felt like I would rather have England's
08:29 players than Spain's players.
08:30 I think I probably still stand by that to be completely honest, barring maybe Bonmarie,
08:35 Pateas and whatnot.
08:36 But I just think Spain were destined to win that.
08:39 I said from the start, I thought they would win it and I was proven right, which breaks
08:43 my heart a bit.
08:44 Yeah, especially at the cost of the Lionesses.
08:51 But I think for now, I think there's so much more that we could talk about from that game,
08:56 but it's going to come back to bite us and we'll just end up going round in cycles.
09:00 So for now, and fans that are super keen to find out more, you can.
09:05 Hopefully this will then become a published article later on in the day.
09:11 But team of the tournament, Graham, I know you've got some suggestions and I wonder who
09:16 your goalkeeper is going to be.
09:18 But yeah, do you want to talk us through who you think should be named player of the tournament
09:23 for what we've just seen?
09:24 It's funny, by the way, if you hear any meows in the background, that's just my cat giving
09:28 his opinion as well.
09:30 I think, do you know what?
09:32 I love Bonmarie.
09:33 I think Bonmarie is the best player in the world.
09:34 I've said that a million times over.
09:36 I think it's hard to say it's Pateas because she's been out for 12 months.
09:40 That's understandable.
09:41 I don't think she'll win the Ballon d'Or because of that.
09:42 She can't compete when she's injured, of course not.
09:45 But if you don't think it's Pateas, that's the best player in the world, or the most
09:50 talented, I think it's Bonmarie.
09:51 And if you don't think it's Bonmarie, it's Pateas.
09:55 But I was actually quite surprised at first when she got the golden ball.
09:58 I was like, "Oh, Bonmarie.
10:00 Yeah, she was great."
10:02 But I think the more I thought about it, that's just her level.
10:06 You're so used to her just being amazing.
10:08 When she's amazing, you go, "Oh, okay."
10:12 It's unsurprising in many ways, and I think she'll go on to win the Ballon d'Or and all
10:15 the awards coming up.
10:17 Yeah, I think Bonmarie is probably the right choice.
10:22 In hindsight, which I've said now four times in the podcast, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
10:26 It's a phrase and it's also a fact.
10:29 But I think Bonmarie was just great all the way through it.
10:33 Her touch, her passing range, her running, just everything about her was great.
10:37 I think I spoke the other week about how with Pateas out injured, her game's changed a little
10:41 bit and she can now bring the ball forward a bit more and she's now a bit more penetrative
10:44 as opposed to just nice and neat.
10:49 Debatable that Alex Greenwood could have potentially been there as well.
10:53 I think Alex was amazing.
10:55 But then Jess Carter, I thought was amazing.
10:58 Mary Earps, outstanding, but I don't think you'll ever get a goalkeeper winning player
11:04 of the tournament because of the golden gloves there and stuff like that.
11:07 But for me, Bonmarie, and I think Bonmarie will win almost every award on the planet
11:11 over the next six months.
11:13 You spoke about Alex Greenwood and Jess Carter quite a lot throughout this tournament, but
11:18 actually the two of them in yesterday's final, I think without Jess Carter, arguably quite
11:23 a few more might have gone in.
11:25 How crucial do you think she's going to be for this England team going forward?
11:28 I think it'd be really interesting to see if we go without back three on a regular basis.
11:32 Because the way that Serena switched to the four, it was almost like she lost confidence
11:35 at halftime against one of the toughest team we've come up against in the tournament and
11:40 so it proved.
11:41 But I really liked the back three.
11:45 I touched on this before the semifinal and I love this player and she's an absolute legend,
11:52 but Lucy Bronze was poor yesterday.
11:55 And I said I felt she was a weak link a little bit and a very, very good world-class England
12:00 team that has very, very few weak links and I'm splitting hairs.
12:02 Lucy Bronze is not a weak link, but I think in this England team, she's one area where
12:07 you can get at, that would maybe be a better way to put it.
12:09 And I felt a little bit like that was the issue yesterday.
12:14 The one problem you've got is if you revert to a back four and you start putting Jess
12:16 Carter right back, I don't think she offers you what Lucy Bronze offers you offensively.
12:22 But I just feel it would be interesting to see if we stick with that back three and Lucy
12:27 gets to like maraud down the right hand side, which she did very, very well against Australia,
12:31 or do we revert to the back four and all of a sudden Jess Carter becomes the right back?
12:34 I certainly don't think you can remove Jess Carter from the team and controversial opinion.
12:39 I think when Leah's fit, I don't think you can take Alex Green without a central defensive
12:42 position.
12:43 So you've got a choice there.
12:46 Look, it's disappointing today.
12:50 Like it's heartbreak and I'm gutted and it's hard and it feels flat and it's raining outside
12:54 and it's grey and everything's awful.
12:57 But like that defence back four or back three, like you've got Leah to come back in.
13:03 Jess now can't be dropped.
13:05 Alex can't be dropped.
13:07 Does Lucy Bronze continue on the right wing back position?
13:09 Do you keep Rachel Daly in the left wing back position?
13:12 Do you know what we touched on last year before?
13:14 Do you know what I wish had happened in this particular game?
13:18 Because she's so good at getting the things on the end of the box.
13:21 Rachel Daly up front.
13:23 I would have loved to seen her in and around the box.
13:26 Look, Alessia didn't have a great game and I don't know if I agree 100% with Alessia
13:29 going off, but I would have loved Rachel Daly to be kept on and just gone, you know what,
13:32 you get yourself up front.
13:35 But defensively, once Leah's back, you've got a lot of options there.
13:38 You've got Esme coming through, Maya Letizia didn't even go to the tournament and she's
13:41 been outstanding.
13:43 The future's bright.
13:44 It just feels like the future at the moment, the kind of like next 24 hours feels bleak
13:50 because we just lost the World Cup final.
13:52 But the future is really bright and I think, you know, Maya's going to come back in.
13:56 I have no doubt about that.
13:58 I was really surprised she didn't get in the squad in the first place.
14:01 I think Esme's got a lot to give.
14:03 I think Jess has just proven why she went to the tournament.
14:06 I think there's a few people doubt that Jess caught her.
14:08 I don't think you can doubt her now.
14:10 I think arguably our best defender alongside Alex.
14:13 Alex was outstanding and Millie Bright's not bad.
14:16 She's pretty decent as Millie Bright.
14:18 She's not bad.
14:19 Yeah, she's right.
14:20 And then Leah to come back and, hey, there's so much positive.
14:25 We're a world-class side and we were beaten by a fellow world-class team.
14:31 I wish it wasn't the case, but it is.
14:32 Suck it up, take your medicine.
14:34 These girls have won something.
14:36 The Lionesses are not a team that haven't won things.
14:40 You don't sit there going, "Oh man, they just got the end.
14:42 Oh, beaten the end again."
14:43 A year ago we were all going absolutely mad.
14:45 You don't win all of them.
14:46 I'm confident this team will consistently get a tournament finals in the way Germany
14:51 and USA have in the past few years, past 20 years.
14:53 Yeah, absolutely.
14:54 Some you'll win, some you'll lose, but I'm telling you we'll be there again and we will
14:58 win it.
14:59 Yeah, I think it's also super exciting to see that when we were going in those final
15:04 four, you were saying, I mean, you predicted three out of the four correctly, but you still
15:09 had some teams, you know, what can you do?
15:12 But you still had some teams, you've got Germany, the USA that didn't quite get to that.
15:16 How exciting is it to see those other teams actually breaking through and beating the
15:21 likes of Germany and the US?
15:22 I love it.
15:23 I think it's great.
15:24 I don't think many people fancied Sweden.
15:27 I thought Sweden were great, but Sweden in women's football have always been at a powerhouse,
15:31 but I think they've showed that they're still kicking about and they've still got stuff
15:34 there and they'll have young players coming through.
15:35 I know a lot of their players won't be at the next World Cup because of age, but they
15:40 were still there when they were like, they finished third, which is very Swedish, unfortunately
15:44 for them.
15:45 I know they don't like me saying, but I don't think people expect them to get third and
15:49 it's a huge achievement.
15:52 You look at Germany, outstanding in the first game and won like what, 7-0 against Morocco,
15:58 but then Morocco qualified.
15:59 They really took it personally.
16:01 I thought Nigeria were excellent against us.
16:03 I don't think it was a plucky or well, they've had a bit of a goal kind of performance.
16:07 I thought they were really good, Nigeria, a lot of quality, a lot of strength.
16:10 I think one thing that needs to come from this World Cup, and I'm not saying anything
16:13 anyone hasn't said before, I'm not reinventing the wheel here, but if you make sure you invest
16:18 in your players that have shown they're worth investing in, then you'll see what quality
16:24 they can produce.
16:25 You look at Nigeria, you look at South Africa, I don't think there's many professional teams
16:29 in South Africa and I think a lot of their players come from South African teams.
16:33 They got the last 16.
16:34 I wonder what happens if you invest in them.
16:36 From an English perspective, you want only the English players to be invested in so we
16:40 win everything, but I think what we're seeing is a slightly bit more investment in some
16:44 of the other teams in Europe.
16:46 And all of a sudden USA fell at one of the first hurdles, almost went out in the group
16:50 stages.
16:51 I think previously we've seen America have had a lot of investment and a lot of, not
16:55 a lot of, I don't want to say help because it sounds like they've been given a leg up,
16:58 they've been given a good level of support previously.
17:01 They still need more.
17:02 You know, the equal pay is another discussion entirely.
17:05 They still need a lot more.
17:06 I think every women's football nation does, but I think you're seeing that slight investment
17:11 and you look at the investment that England have had in their women's teams and the investment
17:16 that's starting to go in the grassroots and stuff like that.
17:19 They still need more, but there's been more investment than there ever has been, I suppose.
17:23 And you've seen where that's pushed us.
17:24 You've seen the investment that Barcelona have just put into their team.
17:27 And look, that was Spain's teams, a lot of Barcelona players in that team.
17:32 And you've seen what happened with them.
17:33 I thought it was an amazing tournament.
17:37 It's shrouded with disappointment because of the fact that England lost the final.
17:40 It's also shrouded in disappointment with, and I don't want to go too far into it, but
17:45 the fact that Jenny Himosa was kissed directly on the lips by a random guy and the Vilda
17:52 tweet and all the stuff that's kind of coming out from that is leaving a bit of a sour taste
17:57 in the mouth.
17:58 If we look at it just to football and the players on the pitch, it was not a standing
18:04 tournament and there was very, very few teams that disappointed their nations throughout.
18:08 I think there was so many nations that I feel proud of what their team did and will be excited
18:12 for the next tournament, the next Copa America, the next Euros, the next World Cup and whatever
18:17 it may be.
18:18 And I think that's going to be the overriding thing is that people are now more interested
18:23 than they were four years ago in the women's World Cup, more interested in the Euros.
18:27 It's just going to build, isn't it?
18:29 Yeah.
18:30 And I think when we have this conversation quite a lot and obviously on this podcast,
18:34 I think when I first started doing it with Flora, those ardent fans.
18:40 She was at the final yesterday.
18:43 I know I saw that.
18:44 I'm going to text her actually.
18:45 I used to like Flora, now hate Flora.
18:46 I know, now I'm raging.
18:47 Not welcome back, Flora.
18:48 But yeah, we started, we sort of picked up on a lot of sort of other comments and since
18:56 you've come in and we've got Georgia, we now stick quite a lot to the football, which is
19:00 great to do.
19:01 But obviously on occasions like this, it's hard to, especially when it's sort of women's
19:04 football.
19:05 But I think what this tournament has done for me anyway, is you're seeing, there's that,
19:12 I think it's sort of going around on the internet, like the tweet of a girl gets into the back
19:16 of a taxi cab and the driver says, "Oh, did you watch the game yesterday?"
19:21 And she's like, "Oh, I can't think.
19:24 The Premier League hasn't started."
19:25 And he meant a women's World Cup match.
19:28 And you've got sort of, I saw another video where it's like a man who was like working
19:33 out in the gym and he was like, stopped his workout and was sort of passionately watching
19:37 the footage going on at the gym.
19:39 And you just didn't get that even sort of this time last year, it was just very different.
19:43 So I was at a gig.
19:45 And sort of seeing things like that, it's just, that is what this World Cup has done.
19:49 Absolutely.
19:50 And that's what's been so exciting.
19:51 And you know what?
19:52 I was at a gig yesterday and it was a metal gig, like a tech metal gig, like heavy bands
19:57 playing and Ashley, my fiancee for those on the way, noticed that there was a guy sitting
20:03 watching Rangers women versus Aberdeen women on his phone during the set.
20:08 And it was like, that's club football.
20:10 And you know, we talk about WSL and stuff like that, but the Scottish Premier League
20:14 has gone further than it ever has.
20:16 But the Scottish Women's Premier League, the guy watching on the phone at a tech metal
20:19 festival is just little things like that.
20:21 And you know, I went to get a coffee just about 20 minutes before we did the show.
20:29 And the first thing the person said went, "You all right?"
20:32 I was like, "No, I'm not."
20:37 But just great.
20:38 I mean, I just, I think it's fab.
20:40 I mean, the successor companies like Fowdys, who were doing the women's football shirts,
20:44 I remember when they first started and I was like, "That's a risk."
20:48 Because you never know, is this just going to be like something where people care for
20:51 a bit and you see how much they're flying.
20:53 I was begging them to send me an England shirt, which they did, thank you very much, in my
20:57 size.
20:58 And they do like the official printing for all the Premier League teams and WSL teams.
21:03 It's not just like going to JD and putting Premier League numbers in the back of a woman's
21:06 name.
21:07 So much is changing.
21:08 And you know, the big thing for me, and we speak a lot about inspiring girls and stuff
21:12 like that, and that of course is amazing.
21:14 But what I love seeing is when you see little boys getting into the women's football.
21:18 Yeah.
21:19 Because that's what's going to change it.
21:20 Yeah, I completely agree.
21:21 I wasn't exposed to it, Susanna.
21:22 Like I wasn't exposed to women's football.
21:23 I had to get in myself when I was 26 years old.
21:25 I had to get into it myself and find my own players and my own teams and realise what
21:29 I liked and who was...
21:30 The history of women's football, I had to do that myself as an adult, which I loved
21:34 and thoroughly enjoyed.
21:36 But these young kids are going to come through and they're going to know who Mary Earps is.
21:39 "Oh, mum, dad, remember when I used to love Mary Earps when I was six?"
21:42 Like a lot of...
21:45 I had a friend who said, "I went to see my men's team's game and I said, 'I'll take a
21:52 defeat today with my men's team, seeing when they work up the more I'm not bothered.'"
21:56 And he was like, "I wouldn't."
21:58 But we had a discussion and he said, he was like, "It's because I haven't been brought
22:01 up with it.
22:02 I like to see the girls do well, but I haven't been brought up with it.
22:05 It's not like it hasn't got that nostalgia and that attachment from me of when you watched
22:09 it over the past few years."
22:10 Kids who've watched it from the age of four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten are going
22:14 to have that.
22:15 Well, I think, and I've forgotten her name, so please remind me, but when Brazil got knocked
22:21 out, their captains, yeah, Marta, sorry, she made a very similar speech saying, "Now, hopefully
22:28 when kids are growing up, they're going to have sort of female role models in the same
22:32 way that her role models growing up were."
22:35 Obviously, several Brazilian greats, but they were all men.
22:38 So it's nice that now, have whoever you want.
22:42 It can be whoever you want.
22:43 It doesn't just have to be from one or the other.
22:46 I had Pep talking about Bon Martini the other day.
22:50 He was like, "I just love watching a player football."
22:53 I'm like, "Yeah, Pep, I know, me too."
22:55 And I know you referred to her as like the, some people were a bit upset that you referred
23:00 to her as the woman's Iniesta, but I thought it was great because if you don't know women's
23:05 football at all, and you're like, "Who's Pep talking about?"
23:08 He's like, "Oh, she's like the woman's Iniesta."
23:10 Men who like, men or women who only watch men's football or kids who only watch men's
23:13 football will be like, "Oh, I kind of remember Iniesta."
23:16 All right, so she's like, "Oh, I'd like to watch her play."
23:18 Then you watch the final and she gets the golden ball and all that stuff that comes
23:22 with it.
23:23 I mean, ultimately there's so much work to do, but I'm like, I don't know.
23:29 It's like a man, I don't know if it should have this effect on me, but it really does.
23:34 Like I've been involved in women's football since 2016.
23:38 There's been people far more involved than I ever will be and ever could be, but I've
23:42 loved seeing people just have an interest and just caring and being upset and being
23:47 happy and being proud.
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