Bethany Joy Lenz Gets Honest About Cult Experience
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00:00 I hope people know that there's no shame in being abused.
00:06 That happens.
00:08 There are really terrible people out there, and there are people who do bad things.
00:14 And that doesn't make you a bad person, and that doesn't make you at fault.
00:18 And so I think taking the stigma away from that pain of being someone who sticks around
00:27 to see the best in someone else, that's a good quality.
00:31 You don't have to change who you are.
00:35 You don't have to shut down your heart.
00:36 You're just not alone.
00:38 There are boundaries.
00:39 There are very practical ways to prevent yourself from stepping into those things again, but
00:44 I just want people to know that they're not alone.
00:46 You recently were open about your previous experience being in a cult.
00:53 And I'm curious to know how-
00:55 It's so funny how it rolls off everyone's tongue when they're like, "In a cult?
00:58 Can I say it?"
00:59 You know?
01:00 It's like, there is a hesitation of like, "Whoa," because it's heavy stuff.
01:04 And if you've not experienced it, as I have not experienced it, you hear other people's
01:09 stories and it kind of blows your mind.
01:12 You can't imagine being in something like that if you weren't on the ground there.
01:15 And so I think it's really important for people who have experienced things like that to remove
01:20 the stigma, to talk about it, to raise awareness.
01:23 And so I really respect that you've done that.
01:25 I'm curious to know why or how did you get to a place, rather, where you felt comfortable
01:31 speaking about it, really?
01:33 It takes a while.
01:36 I think anytime we go through trauma, there's always shame attached to it and you're not
01:40 sure how people are going to perceive you and you don't want to be just categorized
01:45 and lumped in as like, "Oh, the girl who was in a cult.
01:48 So that's now what I am every time I walk into it.
01:50 I don't want that.
01:51 I'm so much more than that."
01:52 But I think that happens to so many of us because of so many different things in our
01:58 lives.
01:59 People just like to put labels and categories on everyone.
02:03 And so that was a big part of it, just feeling like, "I don't know how to talk about this
02:09 in a way that I feel like I'll really be understood."
02:12 And I was kind of terrified of being misunderstood, so I just didn't talk about it.
02:16 I didn't want to say anything.
02:17 It was incredibly painful to heal from that.
02:19 It took a long time and only because I have gone through that process and done a lot of
02:25 that work, I'm sure there's still more.
02:27 There's always more.
02:29 But now I feel like I'm ready to actually offer some help.
02:33 Whereas before, it may have been more about me needing to have a catharsis and now I'm
02:40 good with that.
02:41 Now I actually just want to help people.
02:42 Help others around you.
02:43 Yeah.
02:44 I've mentioned to former members of Kohl's before, and one thing that tends to sort of
02:49 pop out in each thing, a pattern, is the progression.
02:54 The idea that you look up one day and a week, a month later, it all happened so fast, and
03:00 suddenly you're consumed by this thing and you hadn't realized in real time because you
03:04 were in the eye of the storm.
03:05 I'm curious to know what was your experience like in that way when it came to sort of looking
03:10 up and realizing you'd maybe gotten in too deep to a thing.
03:14 You didn't want to be in anymore.
03:15 Yeah.
03:16 It's a great question.
03:18 It's mostly what my memoir will be about is that journey.
03:22 So there's so much to unpack there.
03:23 I wouldn't be able to do it justice here just now for you, but generally what I can tell
03:27 you is that is correct.
03:33 It's very insightful.
03:34 That is what happens.
03:35 It's a slow burn.
03:38 Mark Vincente in The Vows had a great quote.
03:40 He said, "Nobody joins a cult.
03:42 Everybody just decides to, 'Hey, I'm going to screw up my life today.'"
03:45 No.
03:46 You join something that you think is good.
03:47 You become a part of something you think is good and useful and helpful, and it gets twisted
03:52 along the way.
03:53 The important thing to learn would be where are those mile markers along the way so you
03:57 can recognize when things are getting twisted and then be able to set a boundary against
04:02 those things.
04:03 That's really what I want to help people learn how to do is recognize that.
04:08 Absolutely.
04:09 I know most of this will be covered in the memoir, obviously, so only so much as you're
04:11 comfortable sharing.
04:13 From what I understand, your cast at the time knew about what was going on.
04:18 You had friends and castmates who helped pull you out of that or support you leaving that.
04:25 What do you most remember about that experience, the castmates and friends who helped bring
04:29 you back to yourself?
04:30 What I mostly remember is my friends who were there for me in spite of everything that I
04:34 was going through.
04:35 They saw me.
04:36 They saw who I am, and they wouldn't give up on that.
04:39 That's huge.
04:40 Yeah.
04:41 When I left, Paul Johanson opened up his house, and I stayed there with my daughter.
04:49 I met up with a whole bunch of old castmates and friends and people who were like, "We
04:53 love you.
04:54 We've been here.
04:55 We're ready.
04:56 We don't really understand what you went through, but we're here to talk about it."
05:01 That's all you can really ask for, somebody who really sees you for who you are, and they
05:04 know that you're not stupid.
05:06 You're not like there's nothing wrong with you.
05:08 You just got caught up in something because you care, and you probably just didn't have
05:13 any boundaries.
05:14 Right.
05:15 Yeah.
05:16 Yeah.
05:17 That's part of learning how to grow up too, learning those boundaries.
05:19 You've become close with Sarah Edmondson after seeing The Vow.
05:22 Yeah.
05:23 Yeah, I love Sarah.
05:24 The similarities perhaps between with NXIVM's Keith Renier, of course.
05:29 These guys all have the same playbook.
05:30 What is the deal?
05:31 There's a theme, right?
05:32 It's almost like, yeah, absolutely.
05:36 Those similarities from a big picture way, what were some of the common threads that
05:40 you- Oh my gosh.
05:42 There's so many.
05:43 There was just, I remember watching that documentary with my jaw on the floor.
05:47 I had been told about it by another ex-member of my group who, my group.
05:51 I don't know if I like saying that.
05:54 The group that I had been a part of.
05:58 She told me, she's like, "You need to watch The Vow."
06:00 I was like, "I don't need to watch another cult documentary."
06:02 She said, "No, you need to watch it."
06:05 I couldn't believe, but it is, it's all the same playbook.
06:09 Malignant narcissism just, it behaves the same way, whether it's with a group or with
06:14 an individual person.
06:16 Abusive relationships, there's very specific markers for that.
06:21 Yeah.
06:22 Actually, I really look forward to detailing some of that stuff in the book.
06:25 So much of our hurt, the good, the bad, informs our art if we identify as an artist or a creator.
06:31 Do you feel that that is the case for you?
06:34 Do you feel like that's something that your fans will experience through your music?
06:39 I really hope so.
06:40 I process a lot through writing, through painting, through poetry, prose, and the songwriting
06:47 is a big part of that, always has been.
06:49 And so, whether it's something fun and just exploring a moment of feeling jealous or comparative
06:56 and boosting yourself up, and whether it's just fun like strawberries or whether it's
07:00 something that is deep and meaningful and exploring a relationship hurt or abuse, those
07:06 kinds of things all can be put into a context that people can relate to.
07:12 They just, if you present it in a way where they want to open their hearts, I think that
07:17 can be done.
07:18 Will your music also reflect the journey that you've been through, including the experience,
07:23 right, that you had, sort of extracting yourself from that group?
07:27 Will that be covered at all in your music?
07:29 Or is it just kind of church and state separate?
07:32 Yeah.
07:33 I have done some of that.
07:34 I mean, the songs I'm writing right now are not in that zone, I think.
07:39 Also because as an artist and as someone with ADHD, I have a lot of-
07:44 You're like, "I could go a thousand different ways.
07:45 Where do you want to take it?"
07:46 I've got so many things on so many different burners, and it's good for my brain to have
07:49 a break.
07:50 So I don't want to be writing a memoir about this and then working on a newspaper where
07:54 I'm talking about heady topics and then also writing songs about it.
07:58 The song stuff for me right now, I want to have fun.
08:01 It's release, it's joy.
08:03 Okay.
08:04 Strawberries, releasing on the 18th.
08:06 Tell me everything.
08:07 What was the inspiration?
08:08 Well, a huge part of the inspiration was just moving to Nashville.
08:10 I had really just gotten off a plane.
08:12 I'd been there about a week and was just sitting in my friend's bedroom in her house because
08:19 my house wasn't ready yet and started feeling this vibe.
08:23 I saw her leaving her house in her cute little ankle boots, and I just thought, "Oh, I wish
08:27 my ankles were long and skinny.
08:29 Yeah, I wish this, and I wish that too, and I wish that too," and just started playing
08:33 with the idea of all the things that we ... all the insecurities we have as women, the things
08:38 that we wish for and look at other people and constantly comparing.
08:42 I just wanted to play in that realm a little bit, but also have it be something that ends
08:47 up happy and fun and gives everybody a sense of empowerment.
08:50 I love that.
08:51 I also love that everyone, all of my friends in half of Hollywood has moved to Nashville.
08:56 Have they?
08:57 Yes.
08:58 Yes.
08:59 Oh, yeah.
09:00 I know there's a lot of Californians.
09:01 For good reason.
09:02 I love Nashville.
09:03 I'm just curious what made you fall in love with the city.
09:04 Oh, I had been there about 15 years ago and really, really loved it, but it just wasn't
09:09 the right time.
09:11 I went back to visit some friends about a year and a half ago.
09:17 I don't know how else to say this.
09:18 I just felt called to be there.
09:20 It felt like I belong here.
09:22 It was a season of my life when I was ready to do my own thing and work on some music.
09:27 I was ready to just jump in with both feet.
09:29 There it is.
09:30 I love it.
09:31 You got to go all the way.
09:32 You got to just dive in.
09:33 Both feet.
09:34 No half-assing.
09:35 Amen to that.
09:36 Absolutely.
09:37 The cover art for this, established 1981, Florida, Texas, New Jersey.
09:41 Talk to me a little bit about what that represents.
09:43 Well, I was born in Florida.
09:44 I lived in Texas until I was 12 and moved to New Jersey after that.
09:47 I feel like the formative years of my life, particularly in Texas and New Jersey, but
09:52 I also feel this real deep connection with the ocean and having grown up swimming in
09:57 the waves every day with my parents.
10:00 I just feel really connected to those three places.
10:02 I feel like they gave a really good juxtaposition for the different parts of my personality
10:06 that are sweet and genteel and southern and sort of like a hippie dippy.
10:11 Then man, I got that tough Jersey girl in me.
10:15 Best of both worlds.
10:16 Yeah.
10:17 Thanks for everyone watching at home.
10:18 You just performed at an iconic Nashville music venue, honestly, the Bluebird Cafe.
10:23 I mean, that's incredible.
10:25 Taylor Swift performed there early on in her career.
10:28 What was that experience like for you?
10:29 I mean, talk me through that first moment when you're on stage and you're like, "This
10:34 is happening."
10:35 Here's what's great about the Bluebird.
10:36 There's a couple great things about the Bluebird.
10:38 The first is that it's really a songwriter's venue, so you don't get invited just because
10:42 you sing.
10:43 You get invited because you're a songwriter and you're respected and people want to hear
10:46 your songs.
10:48 Just to get that invitation, it was just validation like, "Okay, I know what I'm doing.
10:53 I'm doing a good job."
10:54 The other great thing about the Bluebird is that it's so intimate that what they do is
10:57 they'll set ... You have a guitar, I have a guitar, and then two people on these sides
11:00 have a guitar, and we just sit in around.
11:03 The entire audience is around us, so we're really just in the center.
11:07 It's so intimate.
11:09 My good friend Jen Bostick, who's a wonderful songwriter and singer, invited me to be a
11:14 part of a round.
11:15 It was her, Jeff Trott, who wrote a ton of Sheryl Crow hits.
11:19 As soon as you go look his name up, you're going to go, "Oh my God, this guy."
11:22 My friend Noah Needleman, who's just crazy talented.
11:26 We had a great time, and it was a very exciting first foray into the Bluebird.
11:32 Sort of like debuting or revealing the song to the world.
11:35 I mean, it hadn't been released yet technically at that point.
11:38 What was that initial reaction like from the crowd, being able to feel in real time how
11:42 they respond to your music?
11:43 It's great, yes, because there were some fans there, like One Tree Hill fans that follow
11:49 me, but there were a lot of people who had never heard of me, didn't know what my music
11:52 was, and so to see the crowd really reacting from an authentic place, that felt great.
11:57 They loved it.
11:58 I hope.
11:59 It looked like they did.
12:00 They loved it.
12:01 I feel like you would have known if they didn't, because you'd be like, "Ooh."
12:05 They loved it, guys.
12:06 It was amazing.
12:07 You're going to have to go back, clap for yourself.
12:09 Absolutely.
12:10 Now, obviously, we know you as an actor also, but this musical journey, the sharing of your
12:16 songwriting talents and your musical ability is also incredible.
12:21 Talk to me a little bit about when you first discovered that passion for the music.
12:24 Oh, when I was a kid.
12:25 Yeah.
12:26 It was the first thing I did.
12:27 It was always there.
12:28 Yeah.
12:29 I was just singing.
12:30 I was singing in church.
12:31 I was singing around the house.
12:32 I was singing when I was doing dishes, so it just couldn't stop me.
12:33 And songwriting.
12:34 I just always felt like I had things to get out in song, so any way that I could, I would.
12:39 So holistically, not just with the memoir or only with the music, but when people experience
12:44 you and your heart and your creativity, what do you hope people learn or take away from
12:49 your story and what you share with the world?
12:52 I hope that they don't feel alone.
12:54 I hope people know that there's no shame in being abused.
13:00 That happens.
13:02 There are really terrible people out there, and there are people who do bad things, and
13:08 that doesn't make you a bad person, and that doesn't make you at fault.
13:12 And so I think taking the stigma away from that pain of being someone who sticks around
13:21 to see the best in someone else, that's a good quality.
13:25 You don't have to change who you are.
13:29 You don't have to shut down your heart.
13:30 You're just not alone.
13:32 There are boundaries.
13:33 There are very practical ways to prevent yourself from stepping into those things again, but
13:38 I just want people to know that they're not alone.
13:40 And I mean, as far as I go, I don't know.
13:44 I just want people to have fun with all the creative buzz that's happening in my mind
13:49 and my heart, and if I can share it and it makes somebody happy, great.
13:54 Yeah.
13:55 And some of that creative buzz includes a newspaper for women.
13:58 Yes.
13:59 Yes.
14:00 Thank you.
14:01 It's a little ragged.
14:02 No, this is great.
14:03 This one is well-loved from my house.
14:05 I love a well-loved piece.
14:06 Thank you for this.
14:07 No problem.
14:08 What can you tell me about it?
14:09 So Modern Vintage News, we are launching in September.
14:13 It's a women's newspaper, lifestyle newspaper.
14:16 So we're not, and feel free to look through it too.
14:18 Oh, I'm going to.
14:19 I'm just holding it steady so we can get a good B-roll shot first, and then I'm going
14:22 to dig in.
14:23 Thank you.
14:24 It's awesome.
14:25 Of course.
14:26 And the idea is to get off of your phone, to get off of the algorithm that you're constantly
14:31 scrolling and being hypnotized by.
14:34 I think we're all tired of watching and reading screens all day long.
14:37 Yeah, absolutely.
14:38 So to just give you something tangible to hold onto.
14:42 It's not precious like a magazine.
14:45 I love that you can fold it open and take up space.
14:49 You can use it to wrap flowers in or clean your windows when you're done with it.
14:52 We've got cocktail recipes, historical profiles, we've got how to change the oil in your car,
14:59 and couple pieces that have to do with deep issues like character and loneliness and suffering,
15:04 and how are we processing those things.
15:07 So it gives you some place to go to just be thoughtful.
15:09 Incredible.
15:10 If people want to support, if they want the newspaper themselves, where can they go?
15:14 Is that YTD or can you tell us now?
15:17 It is modernvintagenews.com.
15:19 You can sign up right now.
15:20 We will start shipping in September.
15:22 We're going to do every other month for I guess about a year.
15:26 We'll see how it goes and then hopefully I can get to a monthly place if my brain doesn't
15:29 explode from all the things I'm doing.
15:32 But I'm really excited about this and I hope people love it.
15:35 Modernvintagenews.com.
15:36 Okay, very cool.
15:37 Well, thank you so much for the music.
15:39 Just to circle back around for the music.
15:41 If people want to support, when can we expect more music?
15:44 Obviously, Strawberries is coming.
15:46 Strawberries is coming.
15:48 Strawberries is coming out August 18th.
15:50 And we'll have another single probably in about three months.
15:52 I think the way the music industry is, it's changed so much from when I was a kid anyway,
15:57 when you bought a CD and you did a whole record and that was, you know.
16:02 Now it's all singles and streaming.
16:03 Just like random songs.
16:04 And so the format's so different.
16:06 Yeah.
16:07 So there will be an album, but I think you're supposed to just put singles out for a while.
16:10 Yeah, and let them stream.
16:11 We'll see.
16:12 We'll see.
16:12 [Music]