Former Chief Secretary of Uttar Pradesh Alok Ranjan believes the pandemic-induced lockdowns will lead to a major spike in malnutrition
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00:00 Hello and welcome to our special series on the pandemic and nutrition.
00:10 Our special guest today is Mr. Alok Ranjan, former Chief Secretary of Uttar Pradesh and
00:15 the Chief Advisor to the Chief Minister.
00:18 He's also a nutrition champion, a columnist and the author of two books.
00:22 Thank you so much Mr. Ranjan for joining us and I look forward to a really interesting
00:26 conversation.
00:27 Thank you very much.
00:28 Thank you, sir.
00:29 So, let me start by asking you, sir, that in Uttar Pradesh particularly, women and children
00:35 seem to have a very, very high rate of anemia.
00:38 So what would you do to tackle that, particularly the program called the 1000 Day Program?
00:46 How can we sort of ensure that that sort of keeps going?
00:49 You're absolutely right.
00:50 In Uttar Pradesh, the level of anemia both in women and children is extremely high.
00:57 In fact, among children it is almost 60%, 59.7%, among women it's almost 54%.
01:03 Both the figures are extraordinarily high.
01:06 As such, even in India as such, the level of anemia is high among women and children,
01:10 but Uttar Pradesh it is definitely by far a bit too high.
01:15 So it's just a matter of concern, certainly.
01:17 Now, what could be the reasons why this is so?
01:20 First of all, I would say that, you know, first reason is of course poverty itself is
01:25 a reason.
01:26 Poverty, also inequality.
01:27 Inequality in society, that is what is causing this.
01:34 Then there are a lot of socially disadvantaged groups which are there in Uttar Pradesh.
01:38 There are socially disadvantaged areas in Uttar Pradesh where these figures are even
01:43 worse.
01:44 These are one reason.
01:45 Then it's the agricultural economy primarily.
01:47 And 25% of our state domestic product comes from agriculture, 68% of our people subsist
01:52 on agriculture.
01:53 Obviously meaning that very small land holdings, fragmented land holdings, very small income
01:58 levels for the farmers.
01:59 So they are not able to feed their, you know, women and children as they should.
02:04 That is one.
02:05 And second, of course, add to this, I think lack of awareness is also there to a large
02:11 extent about nutrition and these factors that should be.
02:14 There's also less.
02:15 Then the healthcare infrastructure also at the rural level in particular is not as strong
02:20 as it should be.
02:21 Because, you know, rural areas, these figures are much higher than urban areas.
02:24 And that is also because the infrastructure, the public health infrastructure in rural
02:29 areas is not so strong as it should be.
02:31 I would say these are some of the factors.
02:34 And to address this, as you rightly said, this 1000 day program and focusing on that
02:39 is perhaps very, very vital.
02:40 Because, you know what happens, once the mother is anemic, then she gives birth to a child,
02:45 the child is underweight first.
02:46 So more than 50% of the children born in UP are underweight, then they are anemic also.
02:52 So the first 1000 days, if there is breastfeeding done on an exclusive basis, as has been recommended,
03:00 then also nutritious diet is made available to them as they grow up.
03:04 And sure, then this is the only way they can come out of it.
03:06 What is more important also is, in a vast state like Uttar Pradesh, to really find out
03:12 who are these undernourished children.
03:13 You see, in the vision technology we play a great role.
03:17 We have to identify each and every child, that means we have to weigh the child as soon
03:22 as the child is born.
03:23 Continuous payment should need to be done.
03:24 Then you find out which child is underweight and also which child is anemic.
03:25 Then you administer the either the iron folic acid or whatever else intervention you are
03:35 doing and then see how the child improves.
03:37 Because this kind of IT based monitoring on a regular basis is very important.
03:42 If you really want to track what is the level of malnutrition in a state like Uttar Pradesh.
03:46 So I think a whole lot of concerted effort is required.
03:51 But sir, you said child, but what about the mother during her pregnancy, she also needs
03:56 special care at that time, right?
03:58 She does, she does.
03:59 And unfortunately, despite the work being done by the ASHA workers at the field level
04:05 and also the Anganwadi workers in spreading awareness and also that the government has
04:10 a scheme of distribution of iron and folic acid tablets and somehow we always see, as
04:16 administrators we used to see that targets are being fulfilled.
04:19 But despite the targets being fulfilled, there is some gap somewhere.
04:22 That means either the medicines, iron and folic acid, awareness level is not there and
04:27 even these intervention are not reaching them.
04:29 And if they are reaching them also, they are not using them to the extent they should.
04:33 So I think these are a whole lot of factors and as a result of this, there is high maternal
04:37 mortality in Uttar Pradesh, there is high infant mortality in Uttar Pradesh.
04:41 You know 68% of the infant mortality in Uttar Pradesh is because of malnourishment.
04:45 68% is a high figure.
04:47 68% is a high figure, yes.
04:49 So that is the thing.
04:51 So I think, as you rightly said, we first need to focus on the woman.
04:58 And if we focus on the woman, then the woman itself is took after the child.
05:02 That's very important.
05:04 Sir, this pandemic must have impacted that program also a lot.
05:09 What kind of long term impact do you see?
05:11 Do you think that will also raise the levels of anemia and malnutrition because of the
05:17 issues caused by the pandemic?
05:19 You are very right.
05:21 In fact, the impact of pandemic in this particular area, people are not analyzing or looking
05:26 at it, but it is very scary.
05:29 People are looking at people dying of the pandemic or people looking at unemployment
05:34 figures as a result of pandemic.
05:36 But nobody is looking at this very vital figure which may not be showing any impact today,
05:41 but will show its impact in months and years to come.
05:44 Because what has happened is, I personally found out that even things like in the early
05:49 months of the pandemic when the lockdown was there, children have not been immunized.
05:53 But the immunization which has been done against various infectious diseases, that immunization
05:58 target has not been met.
05:59 People have left, that dose has gone.
06:02 They have not been able to take that dose.
06:04 As a result, these children could be vulnerable to diseases, infections, diseases like TB
06:10 and all in the future.
06:11 And what to say of TB?
06:13 There might even be a recurrence of something like polio later on.
06:16 You know, there could be, if they are not being vaccinated against that.
06:19 So, the focus has to be now that we somehow, okay, the pandemic has to be tackled, healthcare
06:24 infrastructure is focused on that, but a certain amount of attention has to go towards this
06:29 area.
06:30 Children have to be immunized, diseases like tuberculosis have to be handled.
06:35 These things are not done.
06:37 And malnutrition, for instance, children, they get midday meals in schools.
06:42 Even schools are not functioning.
06:45 So, we are missing out on the midday meals.
06:47 Now there was something about the government saying that we will supply ration, extra ration,
06:51 dry ration and it will reach the households.
06:54 How much of that is reaching and how much of that is going to the child?
06:57 There are many issues that come up according to that.
07:00 So, the impact of pandemic, I think, on malnutrition of children and connected diseases is highly
07:07 underestimated at the moment.
07:09 The impact is going to be huge, which we are not realizing.
07:12 That's a scary thought, sir.
07:15 There is also some argument that because of the infection and because of the pandemic
07:22 and the pressure it puts on the healthcare system, that some of these nutrition programs
07:26 can be put on the back burner.
07:28 I suppose you don't agree with that.
07:30 I certainly disagree.
07:32 At the initial lockdown stage, maybe there was no option, maybe, in the first one or
07:36 two months.
07:37 It might take time to stabilize, but thereafter, I think, we have to focus on this.
07:41 We can't get away from it, actually.
07:43 And I think one of the reasons has been that somehow, public health has not been a priority
07:47 in our healthcare issues at all.
07:50 We are talking about treatment of diseases.
07:52 Hospitals, doctors, treatment, the prevention aspect, the public health, hygiene aspect,
07:57 the sanitation aspect and this immunization and other things like that, these are so vital.
08:02 There has to be a separate cadre and a separate structure, governance structure to handle
08:06 this, which could have been deployed on this.
08:08 But the rest would have focused on COVID.
08:11 Right now, everybody is focused on COVID, so you are right.
08:14 They have put nutrition issues on the back burner, which ultimately will be very damaging
08:18 in the future.
08:19 We can't do that.
08:20 Sir, there is a UP state nutrition mission, which was established, I think, in 2014, which
08:26 was sort of, I think, meant to help coordinate between the various departments and ensure
08:30 that nutrition was delivered at the right time.
08:33 How can this body be sort of strengthened and leveraged?
08:36 Or do you think it's doing the right thing at the moment?
08:38 It's good enough?
08:39 Actually, I'll share with you that I happened to be the Chief Secretary of Uttar Pradesh
08:43 when we started this nutrition mission.
08:45 And I was one of the people who contributed to setting this up.
08:48 Because we felt there was a definite need for this kind of an organization or mission,
08:53 not organization, a mission to be set up.
08:55 Why?
08:56 Because, you know, nutrition is not, you know, you can't have one department tackling nutrition.
09:02 You can't say nutrition can be taken only by giving better food.
09:05 Or you can't say nutrition can be handled by better health care.
09:09 There are a whole lot of issues involved.
09:11 There is health care, there is education of the girl child, there is, you know, providing
09:14 vitamins to children, there is, you know, creation of awareness, there is sanitation
09:19 and hygiene.
09:20 There are a whole lot of factors that come into this.
09:22 And a mission approach means when you, across all departments, you, you know, bring all
09:26 those people together to work for a single objective or a mission.
09:30 And that's why I felt at that time that we must have a nutrition mission.
09:33 And we set up a nutrition mission in Uttar Pradesh in 2014.
09:36 And a very senior IAS officer we appointed as a director general.
09:40 And in my every monthly meeting when I used to have with district magistrates, we used
09:44 to have a presentation on nutrition made by this DG.
09:48 So that people become aware.
09:49 And you know what we did, sir?
09:51 We said that each district magistrate and each chief development officer in the district
09:55 should adopt one village personally and see to it that every child and every woman in
10:01 that village gets the right nutrition and no child or woman remains malnourished in
10:06 that village.
10:07 And that was a wonderful example.
10:08 It paid great dividends at that time I remember.
10:10 I must have read that time personally.
10:12 And it paid great dividends.
10:14 So that I think is very vital that it should be there.
10:17 I am told it is still working but I am not very sure what, in what home it is working.
10:22 Maybe they have changed the nomenclature or something of the electricity mission or something.
10:26 Because now we have a portion mission in this government of India level.
10:29 So we are following the government of India's directions.
10:32 The mission is giving directions from there and we should look at it according to that.
10:37 But whatever it is, it has to be a mission approach because it has to be cross departments
10:41 and it has to bring in all the stakeholders together to handle this issue.
10:46 In fact, we should have something like that at the national level too.
10:48 I mean the Poshan Aviyan is partly I think also meant to sort of do that I suppose in some ways.
10:53 Yes, yes.
10:54 They have something like a national Poshan mission also I am told.
10:57 And they have a national Poshan council also with the Niti Aayog.
11:01 So national level they are doing it but these issues are better addressed at the local level.
11:05 National level they can give directives.
11:07 But addressing actually you have to go down further actually.
11:10 Even from the state.
11:11 You have to go down to the village level.
11:13 And that is where to make it successful you have to involve the Panchayati Raj institutions.
11:17 Absolutely.
11:18 The Sarpanj, the village level committees, then your public representatives like the MLA,
11:23 the MPs if they are all sensitized then you know they will realize what is important.
11:28 So programs like food fortification.
11:30 Oh you can fortify the rice, the dal and all that you give them with vitamin A,
11:35 with vitamin B, with iron.
11:37 Now such programs are there which if the public representatives take interest.
11:41 You know these programs can be really brought down to the ground level and
11:44 actual benefit can be given to the women and children in the villages.
11:48 That's what I am saying.
11:49 And as the Prime Minister also said it has to be a Jan Andolan.
11:52 So it has to be a Jan Andolan.
11:53 There can be nothing short of that.
11:55 Absolutely Sir.
11:56 Sir you also led the Food and Civil Supplies Department in the state.
12:01 I mean at one time.
12:03 What steps were taken at that time to sort of you know reduce malnutrition and
12:08 what do you think has been, can be done further?
12:11 Actually I didn't look after Food and Civil Supplies directly but I was the Agriculture Production Commissioner of Uttar Pradesh.
12:17 And under whose ambit all the departments connected with agriculture and food related are working with him.
12:23 And in that capacity I coordinated these programs.
12:26 So basically our focus there has been to see you know how we can improve the productivity of the farmer
12:32 and income level of the farmer.
12:34 Meaning thereby that if their income level increases then he would be able to afford a better kind of calorie intake,
12:40 a better nutritional intake.
12:41 That is how I was able to link agriculture with the nutritional status
12:46 and how these issues should be tackled.
12:49 And then even as Chief Secretary I made it a point to monitor things like infant mortality, maternal mortality,
12:55 immunization, then about nutrition programs, how many meals cooked, how much given.
13:00 I enrolled the NGOs like Akshaya Patra, many other NGOs who did tremendous work in Uttar Pradesh.
13:05 I must say that.
13:06 So lot of things people got together to work.
13:09 So nutrition was something which everybody started talking about.
13:11 That's what I wanted really.
13:13 That everybody should start talking about it.
13:15 Everybody should start realizing the importance of nutrition.
13:17 And malnourishment is a major scourge which we should understand.
13:20 Sir, but another thing that has always sort of intrigued me is that we keep saying that we have had surplus food,
13:27 we have had lot of production and our granaries are overflowing and yet we have on the other side we have poor people who are starving.
13:35 What is the problem? Is it a distribution issue?
13:38 Why is that the case?
13:41 You are very right. You have put your finger absolutely on the pulse absolutely.
13:45 Because we have today a buffer stock of 70 million tons of food grains.
13:49 70 million tons of food grains is no joke. I mean it's absolutely overflowing.
13:53 Yet at the same time in the global hunger index, it's a matter of a very great surprise and nothing to be happy about really.
14:01 But our country is ranked 102, 102nd out of 119 countries in the global hunger index.
14:08 Now that's a shame really. And that's what you are saying.
14:12 That when we have granaries overflowing, why is it that there is hunger?
14:16 And hunger is there because yes you are right, one is the issue of inequalities in income, certainly.
14:22 A certain level of population is living very much below the poverty line.
14:26 Though a large number have gone above the poverty line also, no doubt about it.
14:29 But certain numbers are living below the poverty line.
14:31 And that they are not able to afford the kind of things they should afford.
14:34 Second is also the awareness factor as I said. Third also I think the public distribution system has to work better.
14:41 Public distribution system certainly has to work better.
14:43 Though there is a National Food Security Act, you are aware of that.
14:46 The National Food Security Act says that 5 kg per person per family would be given at Rs 2 or Rs 3 a kilo.
14:55 That's right. Yes.
14:57 That is the NFS Act. But despite the NFS Act and everything, why are we still so low in the global hunger index?
15:04 Why is still there malnourishment because of not getting enough food to eat?
15:09 That is a matter of concern for us.
15:11 And I think for policy makers it is something which has to be addressed on an absolutely urgent basis.
15:18 What we did when I was Chief Secretary was, we had what was known as a 'Veement Day'
15:23 'Vajan Divas' in Hindi as it is called.
15:27 And we found that 13 lakh children were underweight. 13 lakh on a particular day.
15:32 So we monitored each and every child up.
15:35 And every week there used to be a village health and nutrition committee meeting.
15:39 And these children were given nutritional supplements and medicines.
15:43 They were provided for that.
15:44 And we monitored and it was a matter of great satisfaction that a vast majority of them came out of malnutrition.
15:51 So you have to have a targeted approach.
15:53 Have this Veement Day. Educate children. Give them proper nutrition.
15:59 And then monitor how they come out of it.
16:01 This is what is required to be done on a continuous basis if you want to really tackle this problem.
16:06 But you initiated it sir. But has that been institutionalized or was it just a one-off thing?
16:11 That time it was institutionalized because I started a scheme also for this.
16:16 Lactating and pregnant mothers and underweight children.
16:22 A special scheme in which we provided meals to them.
16:26 I don't think it has been continued now at the moment as far as I heard.
16:30 But maybe they have some other way they are trying to attend to this.
16:33 Not in the way that we were doing it.
16:35 Sir, do you think we should now shift our focus from food security to nutrition security?
16:41 Would that make any difference?
16:44 We should be conscious of nutrition security also.
16:48 But we can't do away with food security because in our country there is still hunger as I said.
16:52 You rightly pointed out and we just discussed.
16:54 Whenever there is still so much hunger, food security is still vital.
16:58 But we add nutrition security to food security.
17:01 The food fortification program is a classic example.
17:04 Where you have food security plus nutrition security.
17:07 That's what we should focus on.
17:09 Sir, there is also this Jan Bhagidari program which is a crucial part of the portion of Abhijan.
17:18 How do we ensure community participation in that program?
17:23 Because it's all very nice to have a program but if people don't know about it,
17:26 if people don't participate in it, it doesn't seem to work.
17:29 What is the best way to spread awareness about it?
17:32 You are absolutely right and my experience in government has been
17:37 that such social programs, if you just run them through using government departments and government officers,
17:44 they will never be successful.
17:46 Government departments have a way of working and then they start fulfilling their targets and giving reports and all that.
17:52 But what happens at the ground level is very important.
17:54 And at the ground level there has to be a behaviour change, an attitude change.
17:59 All that is required to make these programs a success.
18:01 And that is why there is talk of Jan Bhagidari, Jan Andolan,
18:04 the Hon. Prime Minister is talking about it, others are talking about it.
18:07 Very much required. That I am absolutely sure.
18:10 As what are the stakeholders? The parents, the women in the house, the Pranams, the Sarpanjh,
18:19 the public representatives, the boys and girls who are studying,
18:23 who can be used as volunteers for this kind of a program, the government officers.
18:28 I mean all of them we have to involve them. The NGOs.
18:31 Lot of NGOs can work in this area. If they all get involved in this and they keep sending these messages and keep talking about it,
18:38 then it takes the shape of a Jan Andolan.
18:41 And when it takes the shape of a Jan Andolan it will succeed.
18:43 You see Sach Bharat Abhiyan, whatever success has been achieved in Sach Bharat Abhiyan was because of a people's willed approach in that.
18:49 Similarly, I remember as this is my state, I implemented the literacy program in Agra when I was DM.
18:54 Using volunteers and all.
18:56 It was a social program but we made 5.5 lakh literates out of the adults.
19:01 That was possible only because it was a people's movement.
19:05 Such programs can succeed only if it is a people's movement.
19:09 If you leave it as a government program and only government reports and government statistics,
19:14 then it will remain only on the top level and nothing will really filter down.
19:17 Sort of brings me to another question sir, particularly related to, I mean I suppose it's not really directly related to nutrition,
19:25 but the government has this direct bank transfer system where they put money into poor people's accounts.
19:31 I am told that there is a lot of fraud happening in that as well with a whole bunch of accounts which apparently nobody knows who they are and what it is.
19:38 But money seems to be going into that.
19:40 How does one check that? I mean how does one check corruption in this system?
19:43 Actually, this direct cash benefit transfer scheme is a very good initiative.
19:50 A good administrative innovation I would say to control corruption.
19:55 Otherwise one never used to get any idea like pension schemes and all.
19:58 One never got any idea whether it is reaching the targeted beneficiary or not.
20:02 Through this you are getting a very good idea. I implemented what is known as the head of pension scheme for the poor when I was chief secretary.
20:10 And in that pension scheme we used this direct cash benefit transfer.
20:15 And at that time I was quite confident that at least 95% of people were successful in making it reach the targeted beneficiary.
20:22 But yes, even with that, if proper monitoring is not done or a low level proper feeding of data is not done,
20:32 then things start happening where even then some people will play around with that.
20:36 So that is there but still I would still go and say that direct cash benefit transfer is definitely much better than the other option which is not having that.
20:44 Because there there is a need of siphoning off of much more when it had to go through several layers of...
20:49 More in the earlier system.
20:51 Absolutely sir.
20:52 Sir, coming back to this integration of various departments that you have.
20:56 I mean, you know, because as you said there are lots of departments which are all trying to do nutrition and all trying to do healthcare.
21:03 You need to have...
21:04 Agriculture, you need to have nutrition thing, you need to have perhaps...
21:09 Healthcare, human and child development.
21:12 Everything all together under one thing.
21:14 Something called Bharatiya Koshan Pishi Kosh or something like that if I recall right.
21:20 Some Bharatiya Koshan Pishi Kosh.
21:24 Some sort of program like that which was meant to sort of help integrate all this.
21:29 In other words, you know, through agriculture trying to integrate all these various departments as I said in the beginning.
21:36 If the agriculture productivity improves, the income of the farmer improves and then the income level goes up.
21:42 So that is why linking that up with various sectors of awareness and nutrition and healthcare.
21:47 So it is same thing as when we are talking about the mission approach, it is something related to that itself.
21:52 This kind of initiative.
21:53 Now let us see how it goes.
21:55 Let us see how it goes.
21:57 And the other thing which you were talking about sir, where you talked about going down, right down to the absolute local level, ground level kind of a thing.
22:05 There was talk about things like Nutri Gardens and other things which might help locally produced food which would not only suffice for them but also allow them to earn some income.
22:15 Has that sort of taken off in some way particularly in Uttar Pradesh?
22:20 Where you encourage people to grow their own produce and then thus get a little bit of food security.
22:27 Actually the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, I just read about few days ago in the newspaper, he has given direction that Nutri Gardens scheme should be taken up on priority.
22:37 Both in rural as well as in urban areas.
22:39 So it will make a difference, I am sure.
22:41 One, it generates awareness and second if nutritious vegetables and all are available at your doorstep itself or your back garden itself, then you are likely to consume them much more.
22:51 I am not saying Nutri Gardens by itself will solve the problem but in addition to what else you are doing, it will certainly help.
23:00 It will certainly make a difference.
23:02 I know the government has laws which says fast food cannot be served in some areas near schools and things like that.
23:08 But is that the only way to deal with the crisis?
23:13 I know especially in urban areas I think it is a major issue. In rural areas it has started, what you are saying, it has begun especially in rural areas which are adjoining the urban set ups.
23:22 There this has started in some way but still not so much of fast food is available there as in the urban areas.
23:30 In urban areas this has become a major issue and even the parents are not being conscious about the detrimental effects of this kind of food which they will have on their children.
23:37 Awareness drives are going on but I don't think people are responding so well to it as they should.
23:43 I think much more nutritional consciousness is required. Again the government can play a role but more to the government I think the society as such, the voluntary organizations, the NGOs and even media can play a very major role.
23:56 I think people need to be aware of this. It will be essential to handle this.
24:00 Sir, while you were Chief Secretary and playing all these roles, what kind of a role did you see for civil society organizations?
24:09 Do they sort of complement the government's work or do they do their own number or how does that work?
24:14 There are two kinds of civil society organizations basically I noticed. One was that they will deliberately just try and pick some fault in some kind of government function somewhere.
24:24 I didn't want to say it, I was waiting for you to say it.
24:30 They try and get some publicity out of it and all that. They are not really genuine organizations as such but they have some axe to grind or some agenda of their own maybe.
24:37 That kind of organization I am not too happy about. But then there are others who actually want to make things better.
24:44 And want to make things better, they will come on and do studies and actually go in the field and work and actually have volunteers and resource persons working in remote responders and coming back with information.
24:55 They can be a great asset to the government.
24:58 Akshaya Paluka for instance. I know that she did good work.
25:04 Yeah, lot of them are doing good work.
25:06 They don't have an agenda or a political agenda or anything. They are just there for that kind of service.
25:11 There are quite a few of such organizations who are really working because they are committed to whatever their idea is.
25:17 I think such organizations the government should support, not only support but should listen to them because they give you the right kind of feedback.
25:26 A government agency doesn't get the right feedback from its own government officers but they will get the right feedback from such agencies.
25:33 And separately sir, you also have these FMCGs who are able to market their products right down to the rural interiors.
25:42 Is there some way to leverage their marketing skills to supply nutritious things to or even during this pandemic, some kind of anti-pandemic kit or something using those people as a leverage. Is there some thought given to that?
25:57 A very innovative thing what you have said just now is, because that is true that FMCGs have a wonderful sales and distribution network.
26:05 Most of the top FMCGs. One we can learn from them and what kind of a distribution network they are having and if government can adopt that kind of a distribution network to distribute a nutritious food and other things.
26:16 What do you think sir, when they are transporting we can add a few things and send it through them?
26:20 Maybe, why not have a public partnership model. It's interesting. I don't think it has been tried so far.
26:27 But why the harm in trying it? We can use their network and through that send what the government wants to send to the motorists. Work with them. I think it's a wonderful idea.
26:38 This is a very fascinating conversation I am having with you but I think we are running out of time. I am getting a ping from my thing here.
26:46 Let me ask you a last question sir. Given the impact of this pandemic and the impact it has had on the health system and everything else. Do we really need to now review our Poshal Naviyan targets?
26:59 Oh yes, we must. Because we started this Poshal Naviyan in 2018 and we said that in 2022 we will be able to tackle this problem.
27:12 With the pandemic and even otherwise it's a huge task. We can't have a removal of malnutrition in 4 years. Not possible.
27:19 Even now the reduction per year is 1%, 2% in the level of malnutrition. If 37% of malnourished, next year it becomes 35%. It's not going faster than that.
27:29 So therefore I think WHO target of 2030 is more realistic. Even if we achieve by 2030 that we are able to do away with malnourishment.
27:38 I think it's a big achievement. But then of course let us think big. Why 2030? We can say 2025 or 2026. But definitely not 2022. It doesn't look possible.
27:47 And let me know. You should not worry about it. These things came up in a hurry. I tell you being in government, the moment you are in a hurry to do something
27:54 and you start putting targets and ask government departments to report, then they start giving you false figures.
28:01 They start giving you hooked up figures. And that doesn't help anybody at all. So then realistic goals are very essential.
28:09 I wish we could have continued this conversation for longer sir. But unfortunately we are running out of time.
28:15 But I would like it if you could join us again because we are running this series on nutrition on our site called Portion.
28:22 Outlook magazine has this thing. And I would like to invite you again to come and talk to us.
28:27 Give us some more knowledge on how best we can do this. Thank you so very much.
28:33 That was Mr. Kulkaranjan talking to us about the impact of pandemic on nutrition.
28:40 And it was a pleasure having you with us sir. I would also like to shout out to Anuj and Akshay from Global Health Strategies for making this possible.
28:52 And to my colleague Sulanshu who has been sitting at the back end patiently and telling me that it's time to wrap up.
28:57 Thank you so very much sir. Thank you sir and have a great day.
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