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FunTranscript
00:00:00 Okay, good morning everyone. Welcome to the Zander Hall of the Imperial Spa, which maybe
00:00:09 you don't know used to be a gym, like a place where people would stretch. We're going to
00:00:15 stretch our knowledge because we have an interesting panel that's going to lead us in helping
00:00:23 understand a way to move your project towards an international audience. What can you do
00:00:31 in the different stages just before your film is nearly finished? And before, as Christine
00:00:37 Vachon called it yesterday in one of the talks, before you give the birth to it. So I welcome
00:00:46 Zach from Deadline and he will introduce the panel to you. Enjoy the talk.
00:00:53 Hello, I'm Zach. I'm a film reporter at Deadline and thanks for joining us today. I hope you've
00:01:02 managed to catch some of the industry program and have been enjoying it. We're here today
00:01:06 to talk about editing, PR, marketing, how editing, PR, marketing can help launch your
00:01:12 feature in the international market. I'm joined by an illustrious group of panelists here
00:01:18 who I'll let introduce themselves.
00:01:22 Morning, I'm Catalin Cristutiu. I'm a film editor based in Bucharest, Romania. And I
00:01:31 also work as an editing advisor for the First Cut Lab.
00:01:37 Hello, good morning. Thank you for coming. My name is Mathieu Daraas. I'm the head of
00:01:43 Tatino Films that organize the program First Cut Lab and First Cut Plus that actually are
00:01:48 represented by Catalin and Lauren here. And we are really happy to partner this year again
00:01:54 with Hugo. And in a minute I will tell about the achievement we had for Czech and Slovak
00:02:00 films.
00:02:01 Hi, my name is Lauren. I'm one of the three partners in a company called Wolf Consultants.
00:02:07 We're based in Berlin. The idea of Wolf Consultants in a nutshell is to offer everything you need
00:02:11 to launch a film at an international festival out of the same hand. So we're graphic designers,
00:02:16 international publicists, and marketing consultants. Out of that work of launching films, we really
00:02:21 started to work much more on consulting with producers before they actually started shooting
00:02:26 to make sure that the strategy is in place and they create the materials they need to
00:02:30 do. I've been consulting with Ace Producers, my colleague Michael is with the Aave, and
00:02:35 we did work with First Cut Plus as well for a couple of years. I think it's super fascinating
00:02:40 to talk about marketing and editing on the same panel. That's first time for me. I've
00:02:44 never thought of that. And I think it's really cool because I talk about marketing a lot,
00:02:48 but mainly it's with like distributors or sales agents or producers. So to bring that
00:02:52 together with like a perspective on editing, I'm really curious. So thanks.
00:02:59 Well this panel is sort of shaped by the two principles of the two production labs here
00:03:05 at Carlo Vivari. And just to explain, because I know we briefly mentioned First Cut Lab
00:03:10 and First Cut Plus. First Cut Lab is sort of a comprehensive training program that supports
00:03:15 filmmakers and their features at the editing stage. And First Cut Plus, which launched
00:03:20 in 2020, aids projects to boost promotion and audience engagement. So I guess I'd start,
00:03:27 if you could tell us.
00:03:30 Yes, thank you. So actually the idea of First Cut Lab came quite simply because me and some
00:03:38 of colleagues who created the lab together, we have a background as programmers. I used
00:03:42 to work for Cannes, Venice and San Sebastian and organizing labs for projects in development.
00:03:49 And more and more filmmakers were coming back to me to actually get feedbacks at the worst
00:03:55 possible time when their films were about to be finished, being edited. And I was trying
00:04:00 to do my best to accommodate their request, but not quite rapidly. But over the years
00:04:08 I realized actually there's a big need for people to get external eyes on their films
00:04:16 when they are at the editing stage. And the way they come to me, and actually even now
00:04:21 we have the First Cut Lab, but people still come to me, is not really the best framework
00:04:26 to organize really creative discussions and to really help the filmmaker to fulfill their
00:04:35 visions. So little by little we started to create this First Cut Lab with a specific
00:04:42 format and we worked for three years with Carlo Vivari for Czech and Slovak films. And
00:04:49 I really like the idea that we have today, the editing and marketing aspects, because
00:04:55 they are at the same time not connected, and connected I will explain why. Because when
00:05:04 you, depending on the filmmakers, but very often the filmmakers in art house, and especially
00:05:10 the debut filmmakers, they do have a vision for the films they want to make. And this
00:05:17 vision is being refined over several processes of script writing, of casting, of fundraising,
00:05:23 of shooting. And this vision is often in art house not really connected to the audience.
00:05:32 Filmmakers have difficulty to express what would be the audience for their films. But
00:05:38 there's maybe a point where they cannot postpone anymore this discussion, is when the film
00:05:45 is being edited, because after that it's at the end. And very often, talking with editors,
00:05:53 I would like to know what Kathleen thinks about it, but editors they often consider
00:05:58 themselves as the very first audience of the film. So they look at the film and what we
00:06:07 have learned over the years, I knew it before, but it's amazing how a film could be, the
00:06:15 vision could be completely reassessed and going in different direction. And we really
00:06:20 try in First Cut Club very often to help the filmmakers in a way to give up with their
00:06:27 initial vision, and to really look at what they have in their hands. And this inadequacy
00:06:33 between the initial vision and what they have is not necessarily a problem, but actually
00:06:38 it's an opportunity. We help them to embrace what they have, or sometimes it's close, sometimes
00:06:44 it's far. So this is really a fascinating process, this creative environment. And to
00:06:51 connect with marketing is that sometimes the editors and us in the program, we look at
00:07:01 what's good for the film and how the audience reacts to it. And we saw that very often it's
00:07:13 a time when for filmmakers it becomes very concrete what would be the audience. And often
00:07:19 producers in the First Cut Club, because of the advisors we have from the industry, they
00:07:27 wanted to get more input on how the film could be seen, positions, and understood on the
00:07:33 market. And we realized after some years that we really do need a program on its own, which
00:07:40 absolutely focus about not the one audience of the first audience of the editor, but really
00:07:47 the different audiences. And that's how we created First Cut Club, bringing marketing
00:07:53 specialists such as Lorin. So this is about the two programs. I just would like to conclude
00:08:00 for you to have an understanding, to be very specific, since we are in Calovary, I would
00:08:06 like to talk about the Czech films. Also to show that this program fits both debut filmmakers,
00:08:15 new talents, and also quite experienced ones. This year we had a big chance that there was
00:08:24 an Academy Awards in Slovakia and Czech Republic in the spring. And actually the two main winning
00:08:30 films did First Cut Club and First Cut Plus, Il Boemo by Petr Václav and Víktim by Mihal
00:08:36 Blažko. And also another film that did First Cut Club won the Golden Leopard in Locarno
00:08:45 last year called Night Siren. And today there's a new Czech film of a 26 year old director.
00:08:55 It's called Brutal Heat that will have its premiere in Proxima section. And later also
00:09:01 in First Cut Plus we have a film from an experienced director, I Don't Love You More by the director
00:09:08 of Poputa. So it's really just to see the range of directors we work with. So we are
00:09:17 quite proud this year of all the success.
00:09:20 Awesome. There you briefly mentioned that the editor is the first audience for a film.
00:09:27 At what point usually are you getting on board on a film and does that change from project
00:09:32 to project?
00:09:36 Well, with the First Cut Club I think we usually have a selection process when there are quite
00:09:46 a few films submitted for some of our programs. And I am involved with the rest of the team
00:09:54 with Mathew and the others in selecting the films that would benefit from our lab. And
00:10:05 well, it's a different process every time because it's films with different needs. And
00:10:14 yeah, I guess we have to look both ways in a way to see the films, to find the films
00:10:22 that would benefit from our lab on one hand, and also to find films that we find interesting
00:10:31 to work on, challenging films that might have a career, so to say. So yeah, I guess it's
00:10:40 a question of looking both ways, both from our point of view and also from the filmmakers'
00:10:47 point of view to kind of anticipate their needs.
00:10:50 Laurel, what exactly does the marketing of a film entail? What does that mean?
00:10:59 In my point of view, everything that you communicate about a film is marketing already. So it's
00:11:02 really communication. There's lots of different words, so it's kind of sometimes a bit confusing.
00:11:07 What's PR? What's press? What's marketing? For me, everything you do to communicate about
00:11:12 the project that you're working on, about the film, with anyone outside of the core
00:11:16 team is already marketing. So how do you talk to potential partners? Marketing for me is
00:11:23 like four parts that mainly I'm involved in, or some of them more, some of them less. It
00:11:30 really starts for me in the development and financing phase, where you really have to
00:11:34 kind of convince people and explain to people what the project, the film that you want to
00:11:39 make is before it exists, actually. So how can you present something that doesn't exist
00:11:43 in a convincing and ideally also visual way? That's something that I work on quite a lot.
00:11:49 And then it goes into the production, pre-production phase, where you need to secure, especially
00:11:55 to pick the most important point for me, that you create the stills. Still photography is
00:11:59 like the most challenging and the most problematic point for us in doing marketing, in working
00:12:05 on releases for films later on. So that's a big point where you need to make sure that
00:12:10 the visual side is there and that you create the visuals that communicate this essence,
00:12:15 this identity of the project that you develop and that you continue to refine throughout
00:12:19 this whole process, also in the editing. Then it goes into launch or release or broadcast,
00:12:26 and then goes into like usually a wider rollout where you go into different distributions,
00:12:31 into festivals, into broadcast. So I think for me, there's really a step that you have
00:12:36 to do before internally where you kind of figure out for yourself what is the project,
00:12:42 what's the identity of it, what's the essence. If you want to talk like more business-y,
00:12:46 what's the brand? I don't like to use that word, but it's kind of a branding exercise
00:12:50 where you really find what makes the project unique, what are challenges, what are unique
00:12:55 selling points, what's the essence, the artistic essence of it, and who do I make this film
00:13:01 for, this project for? So on the one hand, internally, what do I want to say and who
00:13:06 am I saying that to? And to bring these two points together in marketing in a useful,
00:13:11 in a strategic and in an efficient way, I think is what marketing entails for me.
00:13:18 Well, communicating what a film is about must change from region to region because all markets
00:13:23 don't work the same. Even here, the Czech Republic is very different to Bosnia or to
00:13:28 Hungary. So how does that change what you do and how do you, I guess, maintain the essence
00:13:36 of the film if you're changing it from region to region?
00:13:39 Yeah. I think it's super important that you are aware of the complexity of a film that
00:13:45 you're working on, of a project that you're working on, and that you also adapt or prepare
00:13:50 in your mind for really different surroundings that your work will have to exist. So of course,
00:13:56 if you work on a film in the Czech Republic, on Slovakia, or in any country, your domestic
00:14:02 campaign, your domestic marketing, your domestic release strategy, how you write about the
00:14:07 film in your own language, in your own market, how you release the film, will be potentially
00:14:12 very different from how you position it internationally. So for me, it's not changing the essence or
00:14:18 pretending it's something else, but it is being aware that different angles, different
00:14:23 aspects of the film will connect to people in very different ways. So just an example,
00:14:30 maybe. It's a Finnish film. It was called "The Happiest Day in the Life of Olli Mäki".
00:14:35 Some of you might have seen it. It's basically the story of a boxer who is training for his
00:14:39 biggest fight in the 60s in Finland, and he's losing the fight because he's falling in love,
00:14:45 so he can't concentrate on his training. That's a film that was positioned as a historic movie
00:14:50 about the groovy 60s, as a love story, as a sports movie, a boxing movie specifically,
00:14:56 as a buddy story between him and his trainer, and as a social analysis of the pressure of
00:15:04 society on the individual. And all these things are in the film. I mean, every film is not
00:15:09 like one thing, but to kind of have an awareness and develop that awareness, and that happens
00:15:15 in my point of view through communication, through dialogue with people. Like, where
00:15:20 is your film going? Can you talk to festival programmers, to sales agents, to distributors
00:15:24 from different countries, to journalists, to people who will be involved in that, to
00:15:29 publicists, of course? And then to be ready and open and prepared and have a plan how
00:15:35 to translate that essence in the different contexts that you need to translate it into.
00:15:41 - It's interesting, because I guess we're at Carl Vivari, and we're talking here in
00:15:48 labs about real authored works or projects, and those directors can often have very distinct
00:15:56 ideas about what they want to communicate. And firstly, Kassan, I wondered, how do you
00:16:02 manage working with them and giving them information about how they can broaden their film internationally
00:16:09 and sort of keep a good relationship with them and kind of just not change what they're
00:16:13 doing? How does that work for you? - Well, I guess for the editing stage, the
00:16:26 needs of the directors and the editors are in a way common, even if they come from different
00:16:33 places around the world. So it's always a question of storytelling or a question of
00:16:40 rhythm, length, beginning, and all that. But of course, it kind of helps to understand
00:16:51 how the film is perceived internationally when you go to one of those labs, because
00:16:57 you get opinions from the advisors that might be from other parts of the world, and it's
00:17:07 like a preview of a festival audience, let's say. And there are, of course, instances where
00:17:20 that's interesting. For example, there is this film that I might talk a bit about later.
00:17:28 It's called "Autobiography," and because it has this political, historical background,
00:17:40 it's also interesting how those informations about Indonesian recent history are being
00:17:49 understood. It's a matter of knowing the country's history, or if it's something that you can
00:18:06 just convey in a couple of scenes at the beginning of the film so you can kind of follow the
00:18:13 drama afterwards. Yes, what I would like to say is that it's
00:18:25 very important for filmmakers to understand that there's no opposition between their vision
00:18:31 and opening the film and talking about marketing and editing, but actually that it's a good
00:18:37 place for these things to feed each other. So for us, it's crucial to create an environment
00:18:46 where we position ourselves not because we were hired by any structure or fund or distributor,
00:18:57 but because we create this space for exchanges for the sake of the film. So we always look
00:19:06 at what would be best for the film. It's complex because at some moments of the creative process,
00:19:18 it has to be almost one vision, and many people around help this vision to flourish. Then
00:19:33 it really went to this authorship series that there's just a filmmaker, the director. But
00:19:40 what I see with First Cut Lab is that if the interventions are well organized, they can
00:19:50 really help the filmmaker to get closer to their vision. For example, I can take an example
00:19:59 outside of what we work, a filmmaker. So it's kind of amazing. It's almost like radical
00:20:06 and almost too much. But Ruben Ocelon is really the filmmaker who basically show his ideas
00:20:17 from the very beginning. He actually pitches on ideas and he gets all the inputs and feedbacks.
00:20:25 And actually, it doesn't deprive his vision. He still has a strong vision. The First Cut
00:20:33 Lab team were very involved in the Triangle of Sadness. For example, we were many of us
00:20:39 providing input and not only us, but he was also opening to other people. And I'm saying
00:20:48 that because still in Central Europe and especially in Czech Republic, there's a sense of being
00:20:55 very protective of your ideas. And as if such an environment would go against your ideas,
00:21:02 which is absolutely not the case. So the biggest problem is that these ideas are not well conveyed
00:21:09 inside the film, editing and outside of the film. So I see a lot of what we do, a process
00:21:15 of being in tune, understanding the vision and how to fix the themes. I mean, to fix
00:21:22 is a bad word. How to help the film to really go closer to the vision and then how to communicate
00:21:31 about it. Because I think a lot of the editing and marketing is about this tension between
00:21:38 simplicity and complexity, because the art of film is especially for feature debut directors,
00:21:46 it's difficult to understand that in order to be complex, you need to be simple. Yesterday,
00:21:52 I've seen for me one of the most beautiful film of the year, Wim Wenders' Perfect Days.
00:21:59 For me, it's amazing how this film is so simple and so complex at the same time. So that's
00:22:04 always what we try to, I mean, he, Wim Wenders, he had a 50 years career to get to the simplicity
00:22:12 and this complexity. But this is this tension that is very interesting to me in what we
00:22:18 do. And practically, in the lab, we ask our advisor to be completely blind. We absolutely
00:22:27 don't give them any indication of synopsis or images of the director, because it's already
00:22:34 interesting if someone tells you what comes first when they talk about the film. We had
00:22:45 several examples of three advisors, and one said it's a love story about this couple.
00:22:52 One said it's a sibling drama, and one said something else. So it proves that it could...
00:22:59 So we look at this feedback and what do we do with this feedback? Do we want to embrace
00:23:05 them in terms of editing and in terms of marketing? Does it mean that we can have different campaigns
00:23:11 where we talk about siblings and one about love? So I think it's a process for filmmakers
00:23:20 to be very aware of what they have. Filmmakers, I'm talking about editor, directors, producers,
00:23:30 so that they know how to communicate, because what happened most of the time is filmmakers
00:23:36 have very difficulty. I mean, it's often the talk like, I'm not here to explain my film,
00:23:44 but it's not what we are asking you to do. But you need to...
00:23:48 That's my talk.
00:23:50 Yeah, yes. So that's what I really like in First Cut Lab, looking at intention and how
00:23:57 to translate this intention into decisions in terms of editing and marketing.
00:24:02 Well, Laurent, we know that the international market's crowded. There's a thirst for content,
00:24:09 so many networks, so many streamers. How do you stand out?
00:24:14 And I'll come to that in a second. I just think what's really interesting is this tension
00:24:20 that you started to mention as well, between the artistic integrity as the filmmakers,
00:24:25 especially directors, like to defend in a way. And then often marketing is often seen
00:24:32 as something really confrontational, where they feel like they have to sell out. So how
00:24:36 to stand out? In a way, you need to kind of play to what the market, what the audience,
00:24:41 what the industry wants to do that. And that is often like a struggle or like a conflict
00:24:48 and or like a communication. And I assume it's similar in editing, that a filmmaker
00:24:54 has a certain idea and then the editor comes and tells them, this doesn't work. You have
00:24:57 to do it differently. There are certain technicalities, there are certain rules, there are certain
00:25:01 conventions that, of course, you can play with, but you have to be aware of them. So
00:25:06 in a way, for me, the editing kind of going inside really this piece of art that you're
00:25:12 creating and the marketing to build kind of like using very specific tools that follow
00:25:18 different rules and create like a surrounding narrative that supports what you're doing.
00:25:23 And I think to stand out, to come back to your question, you have to do that. To have
00:25:28 an amazing film, if no one goes to see it, might as well not make it. I mean, that's
00:25:33 not going to help. So I think there is a few tools that you as producers, as filmmakers,
00:25:40 as people in the film industry need to be aware of that they are tools. So for me, stills,
00:25:46 like a very strong key still that can convey like one or like the main aspect of your film
00:25:54 in a way that functions outside of the moving image. That's like a very crucial thing. That's
00:25:59 like super important. A strong international title is super important. This is something
00:26:05 that we also in First Cut Plus often discussed with people. They have a title or like a working
00:26:10 title that they used for their project in their original language, but they don't have
00:26:14 an international, which is mostly English language title. And that is such a problem.
00:26:19 If you live too long with like a working title and you get attached to it and it's like it's
00:26:23 really hard to let go of it. So like a title that will work internationally and is recognizable
00:26:30 and has not been used like 15 times in the last 10 years is like super important for
00:26:36 marketing for me, really to kind of try and convey that essence of the film as much as
00:26:40 you can do that in one title. And then it's like short texts, like the shorter it is,
00:26:47 the more complicated it is. So to have a really strong short synopsis that will draw people
00:26:52 like into the atmosphere of the film and really give them like the feeling they want to see
00:26:56 the film is really super important for me. I think control is very important, not to
00:27:03 have like too much stuff out, like don't publish like 10 photos of your film without any knowledge
00:27:09 why you're doing it. Like really have a controlled strategy of using all information and all
00:27:15 material that you have for your film that you create, like with the people who work
00:27:19 on your marketing and in a strategic and controlled way is something that we often fight with
00:27:24 and try to catch up on like old synopsis that are flying around somewhere. Old stills that
00:27:31 have been published already. So yeah, have a strong vision of how you can convey the
00:27:35 essence of the film that you will find in the editing process, in the filmmaking process
00:27:40 and how you convey that with like strong materials and information that is like put behind your
00:27:46 film as an asset. It's interesting because the tension that you've all talked about here,
00:27:52 I guess it conversely appears when you're trying to discuss your film with a general
00:27:59 audience compared to a business audience. So you're coming to something like First Club
00:28:04 Lab and you're getting a film together and then you're going to go to maybe distributors
00:28:08 and try and get distribution. So what is the, how do you balance those differences? How
00:28:15 do you kind of make your film appeal to the business audience? And then as well as that,
00:28:22 trying to keep the artistic integrity to then give it to a general audience? Yes, you could.
00:28:30 That's all. Well, we are mostly looking at the business audience, but what's the difference
00:28:40 actually? Maybe you should say something. We are working in the field of advisors, people
00:28:54 from the industries and not regular people. But the way we ask them to react is to react
00:29:04 as audience. So there's a tension in that. But I think that the world of professional
00:29:12 filmmakings and audience, they are not separated anymore because any regular person has access
00:29:21 to information of the professional world. So I think that's what Lloyd said about also
00:29:28 the control is that even if we talk about communication in the business, it will always
00:29:37 leak somewhere. I mean, if for example, here we have this afternoon, this work in progress,
00:29:44 it will already be information for any audience. So of course, there are technical differences.
00:29:56 I don't know if it's a place for that, like when you make a teaser or a poster, if you
00:30:02 want to sell your film to distributors, it's a bit different than for audience. But this
00:30:08 is more like technicalities. But what is important for us is always to understand what the filmmakers
00:30:21 are comfortable with communicating and helping them in that process. And I think if they
00:30:29 are comfortable with the way they want to communicate, it will transfer in all kinds
00:30:33 of communication to business, to audience. And yeah, I think that's the tools that we
00:30:46 give. But of course, it's very difficult to stand out. You talk about standing out and
00:30:54 you talk about the streamers. All the films that I mentioned, almost all of them, they
00:30:58 are on Netflix, at least Central Europe. But even if they are on Netflix, it doesn't make
00:31:06 them necessarily to stand out. So that's also sometimes people say, "Oh, but I want to do
00:31:11 a film for festivals." But except maybe Calo Verde, where anything is sold out, in many
00:31:19 festivals there are some films that people will go to see and people where the screenings
00:31:24 are empty. So you also need to communicate for this specific festival audience. Yes.
00:31:33 But I think you want to have some case study or some specific example you want to mention?
00:31:40 No, I think just to wrap that up, for me, I mainly work on business to business communication.
00:31:46 So we prepare for the festival launches and then we mainly talk to distributors, to buyers,
00:31:51 to festival programmers and to the press. And the press is really the bridge then into
00:31:56 festival audiences and larger audiences. So I think it's very connected, but also there
00:32:02 are specific things that work for business to business communication. Because distributors,
00:32:07 for example, if you show them a film has similar potential than another film that they know
00:32:12 has been successful in their territories and many territories, that will give them an interest
00:32:16 to see the film. I think the audience in specific territories follows different rules, often
00:32:22 that is based on the groundwork that you can put together into the marketing or into the
00:32:27 campaigns and the communication for the festivals. But I think, again, there needs to be a certain
00:32:36 range of options that you can present to the industry and then they will adapt that to
00:32:41 their specific needs for the audience in the end.
00:32:46 I also think, going back to the First Cut Labs, so that is to the editing workshop,
00:32:54 because a lot of the films that we worked on go to film festivals and that's somehow
00:32:59 a launching pad towards a festival career or distribution or streaming platforms and
00:33:08 all that. So during the First Cut Lab, you get these three advisors, which are industry
00:33:15 people like sales persons or producers or distributors or festival people. So in a way
00:33:23 you get a preview of how your work might be perceived in the first step in the journey
00:33:33 of the film, which is usually the film festivals. So it's somehow an exercise for the real life
00:33:41 of the film, so to say.
00:33:44 Before you guys show your case studies, I think the film festival point is quite interesting
00:33:50 because it is usually the first launch on the international stage for a film and it
00:33:54 can really help. But for all film festivals, like you said, aren't the same. Things that
00:33:59 show here might be different than things that show Toronto or whatever. So I guess for filmmakers
00:34:06 or producers listening, how do you pick where to screen your film? How are you figuring
00:34:14 that out and what effect can that have on your film?
00:34:19 I mean, as a reality, you can pick whatever festival you want, but they also have to pick
00:34:22 you. So that's like, first you have to get somewhere. I think there is no answer for
00:34:28 everybody, but you have to kind of adapt it to the project that you're working on. I think
00:34:32 it's really important that moment of launching the film in a world that is really controlled
00:34:37 by news is a super important moment. So you need to have, for a project, especially for
00:34:43 a feature film, there needs to be a moment of excitement of first showing it, of first
00:34:49 discovering it, of it being newsworthy. And that is usually the festival launch for the
00:34:54 films that we work on. It has changed a lot the importance of what festival and what section
00:35:02 you are in in the last 10 years or so. That started pre-pandemic already. For us, it doesn't
00:35:08 make such a big difference anymore if you're in Critics Week in Cannes, if you're in Asat
00:35:13 Raga, if you're in Calavivari, if you go to Locarno, if you go to ITVA. The work can be
00:35:18 created around that. It helps if it's like an A-festival like Calavivari, of course that
00:35:24 helps. You're going to get more attention. But the buzz, the attention, the excitement,
00:35:29 you have to create yourself. The festival alone, as Mathieu says, is not going to do
00:35:34 that just because you go. Many people think that. They're just like, "Oh, I made it. I'm
00:35:37 going to Cannes." And then no one's going to see their film. There's no reviews coming
00:35:41 out because there's three competition films playing the same day that steal all the attention.
00:35:47 So you have to do that yourself or you have to know people who can help you do that. As
00:35:53 a filmmaker, as a producer, of course, you don't have to do that yourself, but you should
00:35:56 have an awareness that you might need someone, a publicist, an impact producer, a marketing
00:36:01 consultant that can help you with a strategic approach, how to maximize the attention that
00:36:09 only really the festival or the world premiere or the international premiere can generate
00:36:13 for your project. Yes. I think there's a lot of mythology about
00:36:21 the world of festival and research for certain truths from the filmmakers. But actually,
00:36:31 it's a constant process of research and updating. It's a never-ending discussion and constant
00:36:38 process of updating yourself. So actually, it's the job of the producers to really get
00:36:45 to know what's going on, to be informed in a very similar way that when you have this
00:36:51 project in development, often people say, "Oh, which co-producers? Do you have a co-producer
00:36:59 in Germany?" Actually, it's your work to watch the films, to look at the credits, to look
00:37:05 at their website, to understand who could be your partners. And for the festivals, it's
00:37:12 very similar. Calovery, as an observer, I can see has been changing quite a lot in the
00:37:23 last five, six years because what I really appreciate is that it managed to combine,
00:37:30 let's say, bigger audience-friendly themes and rather risk-taking themes. And they managed
00:37:42 to also fill a big hole. Yesterday night, I was at a documentary which is in the main
00:37:48 competition, and they managed to talk about the theme in a certain way that would attract
00:37:54 the audience. There are some festival programmers that actually are overwhelmed with the world
00:38:03 of labs, so they even see it in a negative way if a film was in a lab. For example, Cannes
00:38:11 Directors' Fortnite this year, it would be better for me not to tell which films were
00:38:17 in First Cut Lab because there's also this kind of nostalgia of discovering films which
00:38:24 doesn't exist anymore because there's all these places where films are being spotted
00:38:31 before they come to the programmers' eyes. Then you have the Critics' Week. We had a
00:38:39 First Cut Lab, First Cut+ films, a Brazilian film, which I think a few years back would
00:38:45 be people would say, "Oh, this is not a film for Cannes. It's an empowering sport drama
00:38:52 about a young girl who wants to abort what is impossible in Brazil." It doesn't fit to
00:38:59 the image of what a Cannes film is. On the other way around, there are some films that
00:39:05 I think a few years back would have been automatic selection for Cannes or Locarno and are not
00:39:13 anymore. It's constantly changing. There's ways to get informed, but you need to watch
00:39:24 the films, you need to talk with the programmers and so on and so forth. In a more pragmatic
00:39:32 way, as Lorin said, sometimes you feel your film was perfect for Locarno and finally you
00:39:38 will be to Tribeca. Sometimes you say, "Oh, why not Calouvarie?" Then it's somewhere else.
00:39:46 You have to adapt to the circumstances.
00:39:49 Cool. I know you two had some case studies. I don't know if you wanted to get into those
00:39:55 now.
00:39:57 I want to actually mention two films that we worked on at the First Cut Lab. Because
00:40:10 we are in Calouvarie, I think it makes sense to talk about two films that are being shown
00:40:16 in this year's festival. You may actually go and see them if you want. The first one
00:40:22 is called Brutal Heat. It's a debut by a very young director, Albert Hospodarsky. It
00:40:32 premieres today and then it has three more screenings, so you have plenty of time to
00:40:37 catch it in the Proxima competition or selection.
00:40:43 We workshopped the film during last year also here in Calouvarie, so it's like a local success
00:40:50 story, let's say. It's a specific case because it had some unusual needs. It's a very, let's
00:41:03 say, weird film. It's very personal. It has this David Lynch-like quality. It was very,
00:41:18 very close to being picture-locked, so there wasn't a question of really altering the rhythm
00:41:25 or changing the structure. But I think they felt the need to run it through someone else
00:41:36 before letting it out in the world.
00:41:40 Sorry, just briefly, I was going to ask, what are unusual needs for a film?
00:41:47 Well, I think people usually struggle with the structure or they are not sure if the
00:41:58 audience understands who is who, or if they're not sure whether it gets boring towards the
00:42:06 middle of the film or there are too many endings. There is this debut ambition of putting everything
00:42:18 that you thought about into your first film that also Matthew was mentioning earlier.
00:42:24 So this would be usual things that filmmakers struggle with. But Brutal Heat being such
00:42:34 a personal thing, there isn't really a way to do it right. So during our process, we
00:42:46 managed to find a secondary plot that wasn't really helping the film, that wasn't really
00:42:55 pushing it forward. And we did sort of an interesting exercise because all the advisors
00:43:02 mentioned that it's similar to the work of David Lynch. So then I proposed to the guys
00:43:10 to kind of find the differences between Eraserhead and Brutal Heat and see where we get to.
00:43:21 So at the end of the process, we kind of understood that the existential dread or the pressure
00:43:30 that's being put on our main character wasn't clear enough because of this secondary plot.
00:43:38 So after that, I guess it was a straight line for the team.
00:43:48 And I would also like to mention another film. It's called Autobiography. It's directed by
00:43:57 Makbul Mubarak from Indonesia. And it still has one more screening tomorrow evening. So
00:44:06 catch it if you can. We workshopped this in 2021 in the frame of First Cut Lab Philippines.
00:44:17 And it's a very different type of story. It's also a debut film. It had quite an impressive
00:44:28 festival career and distribution. I think it's premiered in Venice where it also got
00:44:34 the Fee Precious Award. And because it's a drama about some moral dilemmas and all that,
00:44:48 but it's all set against the background of corruption, militarism, and all that. So we
00:44:59 really had to make sure that spectators all around the world could understand the situation
00:45:10 at the beginning of the film to kind of go with the characters. So it was a moral question
00:45:18 of taking out some details that would get in the way of understanding the characters
00:45:30 and the political situation that they're being thrown into. So I guess this kind of gives
00:45:45 a glimpse of the different needs that authors and film teams might have that could be helped
00:46:02 through the First Cut Lab editing workshop. But it's of course always a question of understanding
00:46:11 the needs and helping the film teams get where they want to get faster or easier. Because
00:46:23 of course we don't act like part of a team into changing a film or pushing our personal
00:46:39 tastes, but it's really a question of understanding where the team needs to go and just help them
00:46:50 with a fresh gaze, with a fresh look from the outside.
00:46:55 I'm just going to show some stuff in a second, but I just wanted to add something to that.
00:47:02 So for me what's really interesting is that this whole process of really bringing the
00:47:06 film to where it can be, where it needs to go, making it clearer, working out the essence,
00:47:14 the identity of the project in this editing phase, is really for me paralleled by how
00:47:19 to communicate that. So it seems like really two different things, but they have to happen
00:47:24 at the same time I think. Because often people, and I think that's happening less and less
00:47:28 thankfully, but there is still kind of an understanding that first you make the film
00:47:32 and then you think about how to promote it and how to market it. And that is the most
00:47:36 damaging idea I think ever. So you need to really start thinking, you have to kind of
00:47:42 start with a concept, with an idea that you have at the script stage already before you
00:47:46 start shooting, and then refine that and adapt it and work out what film is it really coming
00:47:53 out of that process of editing and how can you adapt a communication strategy to that.
00:47:58 So we often come on a film with even fresher eyes and watching a first or a rough cut often
00:48:06 is the moment when we start watching a film. And then all these processes that you have
00:48:11 in the editing can really inform also the idea of how you communicate about the film.
00:48:16 And maybe also the other way around, I mean this is something we haven't talked about
00:48:19 it, because in the especially European influenced art house world, we're not telling people
00:48:25 how to edit their films as marketing people. That's like more the American approach maybe
00:48:29 where they say like, no this didn't work in the test screening, you have to edit like
00:48:32 three different endings. So this is not the understanding I think that I and I assume
00:48:37 most people have. For me it's really respecting the artistic work that the people, the filmmakers,
00:48:43 the creatives are doing, and then helping to translate that in the best and most efficient
00:48:47 way. But it's really two processes that can kind of inform each other I would say.
00:48:57 What do you think is the best point for a filmmaker or producer to get you involved
00:49:01 or marketing people involved then if you think you kind of have the sort of freshest eyes?
00:49:07 And I wonder if you could give some examples of where that might have worked and where
00:49:11 it might not have worked depending on when you came on.
00:49:16 So we're like a fairly small structure with like three people. So we do get involved on
00:49:20 films like on pre-production stage or in the financing stages on like maybe 10 projects
00:49:25 a year or so. And that is often with people we know already. So we work with a filmmaker
00:49:30 launching a film at a festival. We have a good experience. We kind of feel that we kind
00:49:34 of speak the same language and then often we get involved in the next project. For me
00:49:39 like the first moment is really financing when you need to apply for like funding when
00:49:44 you need to put together like something to present the film to potential co-producers
00:49:48 to financiers. Like that is like usually treatment stage or maybe script stage. And that is a
00:49:54 good moment to start thinking about it. Also if you can afford it. All of this is also
00:50:00 budget questions. And I think that's really interesting to think about like you can have
00:50:04 the editor and your budget for sure. But to also have an awareness. No maybe not. I don't
00:50:10 know. Maybe I'm not seeing the reality there. But to have for me like to have someone who's
00:50:18 like thinking and consulting and advising you if you don't know how to do that yourself.
00:50:23 How to create the impact. Create the attention. Create the materials that you need for the
00:50:30 film. It's not less important. Like you can make the most beautiful film. I've said it
00:50:34 before if no one knows about it and you don't have the tools to push it into the audience's
00:50:39 business and like audiences. And it's not going to help that much. It was a bit of a
00:50:46 rant. Sorry I'm going to go back to your question.
00:50:50 Yeah. Sometimes we want to help the films immediately with First Cut Plus. But sometimes
00:50:58 it's a process of awareness for the producers. Oh that's how I should do it for next time.
00:51:04 So what we also try to do with the program is to get this really understanding that marketing
00:51:13 is such a part of the process as important as the costume designers at the OP. So over
00:51:25 the years it appears that especially in Central Europe which has been our focus, the producers
00:51:33 we work with they really integrate this question more and more in the next films. So I hope
00:51:39 they come to you earlier the next time with a budget.
00:51:43 Yes they do. I'm just going to show some slides. I don't have a case study. I have a few things
00:51:50 that I just want to show you. Some of them we talked about already and I'm going to jump
00:51:54 over that. So this is the four phases that I mentioned from pre-production over production
00:51:59 to launch to distribution. There's two general things in there that I always like to say.
00:52:04 And that's really be aware of who you're communicating to. So it's really important and interesting
00:52:09 to think about in what context am I communicating with whom and why. So to have a strategic
00:52:14 approach to that. And the second one and that's also I mentioned that is to not treat marketing
00:52:20 and press work as an afterthought but to really see it as an integrative part of the filmmaking
00:52:25 process. Yes take all the photos and then do that. It's very nice. So this is just a
00:52:32 brief thing. I'm going to show some examples. So this is an example for a pitch deck. It's
00:52:38 so you have to turn around. You can see it. I know it because we made it. So and this
00:52:43 is just an example to show when you have a project that you want to get financed. This
00:52:49 was mainly sent to two financiers or two potential supporters or co-producers. How do you create
00:52:55 something visually that looks as if the film exists already before it does exist. So that
00:53:00 is a lot of work in graphic design. You have to work with still photography. You have to
00:53:03 work with images from other films. But you have to really recreate or create like an
00:53:08 identity of how your film might look later on. Often that is not exactly the same but
00:53:13 you have to kind of make it professionally looking and convincing enough for people so
00:53:17 they will trust to give you money to make that film. So this is just an example as a
00:53:22 few different elements that likes change depending on what it is. But at this moment already
00:53:26 in the financing stage we start to think about like audience appeal. What is interesting
00:53:31 for audiences and that comes directly after talking about positioning. What is the film?
00:53:35 What's the identity of the film? And we often look at comparable projects. What could you
00:53:40 compare the film to and use that also as tools for the industry for the business to business
00:53:46 communication to kind of give people a security that they can get on board or they should
00:53:50 get on board. And this is often like the first contact that people used to pitch and then
00:53:55 they send out the treatment or the script. So this is like a very first moment. Then
00:54:01 the next moment and I think that is super important is before you start shooting to
00:54:05 think about the visuals that you will need. So this is a poster brief that we worked on
00:54:08 for an Austrian film. It's a love story where the woman is ill and will die in the end.
00:54:14 Spoiler alert. If we get to see it I'm sorry. And this is something that we do before we
00:54:20 start shooting a film. So to think about like how could a potential poster for that film
00:54:25 look in this case we did like I think eight different concepts that were not like super
00:54:30 different because it's the same film but still like put like a different emphasis on something.
00:54:34 So do we want to go kind of focusing more on the female character? Do we want to focus
00:54:40 on the couple? Do we want to have like a classic love story? Do we want to have it like quirky
00:54:44 and more like graphically different? And this then was used to really brief the stills photographer
00:54:49 who was involved in the film and make sure that we create the images that we need as
00:54:54 good as possible. I mean that nothing always happens perfectly but at least this managed
00:55:00 to create like a solid base of materials that later on once the film was done and edited
00:55:05 and we knew exactly where it was going what was the focus in the end we could really position
00:55:10 it in the way that we needed to. Then there is the moment where we consult on still photography.
00:55:18 This is Olly Mackie again the film that I mentioned already and this is just an example
00:55:21 just to kill once and for all hopefully the idea that screen grabs are like the perfect
00:55:26 solution for everything. Lots of films work with screen grabs because it is technically
00:55:31 possible of course and for some films it works okay. But here you see and this is like a
00:55:36 crucial scene in the film where like the boxer that I mentioned Olly Mackie is holding a
00:55:40 press conference but he can't concentrate because he's flirting with his wife who's
00:55:44 in the audience. In this three screen grabs of the scene that I tried to pull and I really
00:55:50 tried hard to get the best one and I didn't like put bad ones on purpose it was really
00:55:54 not as clear as on the still photo that you see below what's going on like you don't see
00:55:59 that it's a press conference you don't see the cameras or if you do then you don't see
00:56:03 her face. So a still photographer who will like create the images and they have to look
00:56:08 exactly as the film looks that's also important it doesn't help if you have a photographer
00:56:13 who follows their own artistic project on like a film set for an exhibition or like
00:56:18 an art book no this is like part of like the team and as the editor as the sound designer
00:56:23 as the costume people they have to follow and work for like a shared vision of like
00:56:28 a visual idea. But this can really make all the difference in like the materials that
00:56:33 you have and the possibilities that you will have later on to position the film in many
00:56:37 different ways and really help your film to be successful on the market and with audiences.
00:56:44 I'm going to not go into the log but I'm going to show you also one film that is premiering
00:56:47 here in Calabibari and it's a film from Georgia called Blackbird Blackbird Blackberry. It's
00:56:52 a really complicated title to say especially quickly so we said it a lot and premiered
00:56:57 in Cannes in Cannes this year and this is just to show you like the key still and the
00:57:02 importance of it so the film can go back really quickly to the log line and the synopsis
00:57:07 which I don't think we have time to discuss in great length but this is also work a log
00:57:11 line and a short synopsis this is weeks of work so every word in there is like really
00:57:15 tweaked and discussed and worked on and it's not like arbitrary so like the shorter the
00:57:20 texts are I think the more important is to really good like good work in there and to
00:57:26 try and convey the atmosphere of the film and get people really interested while being
00:57:30 true to like the artistic vision of the film but to also see that this is something that
00:57:34 is standing outside of the film and so the film is about this middle aged woman who's
00:57:39 discovering her sexuality for the first time falling in love and this is the key still
00:57:44 that was selected so it's a still that is really strong we felt it worked really well
00:57:51 and it conveys a lot of the story and also if you don't know the story but you see it
00:57:55 it's still intriguing it's like weird it's like she looks strong it's like empowering
00:58:00 it's sexual there's tenderness in there and so like a good key still and then we'll go
00:58:06 really many places so if you see also like the first still you select and the first stills
00:58:10 that are out they develop a life of their own and this is also really helping the film
00:58:15 to be recognized so from the Calo Vivare website where the film is still playing tonight at
00:58:20 10pm I think if you want to catch it it's an amazing film so I can only recommend it
00:58:25 to the reviews to like the material it's a Swiss production so the materials that Swiss
00:58:30 films put out to like the cover of the press notes like this recognizability that you get
00:58:35 from a strong still will really help you exist in a very crowded market and make it much
00:58:41 easier for you to be aware there. One last thing that I'm going to say and this is also
00:58:47 coming back to this tension between authenticity and like tools is one of the conflicts we
00:58:53 always have is about grading stills like as a marketing person we need to have a still
00:58:58 that works in different formats in print and online and the filmmakers often have the feeling
00:59:04 that they have to grade the stills the same way that the color grading of the film is
00:59:09 and to have an awareness that there's different rules that different regulations there's different
00:59:12 sets is a you can I mean you can see this strongly but like the one still on the left
00:59:19 is the graded one and the one on the right is not and is also a composite of like two
00:59:24 different moments from the same two different photos to really optimize what you get to
00:59:28 do so the stills that you use don't have to be like exactly like this in the same tones
00:59:33 and in the same frame in the film because they follow different rules and they're like
00:59:37 other tools that are like yeah important for you I think to be aware of how to create that
00:59:44 and this is this QR code is my my business card also if you want to get in touch and
00:59:50 tell me that you have more questions that we didn't get to answer here I'm very happy
00:59:52 to we can also chat to me after but it's yeah it's like always in there so thanks
00:59:57 I'm conscious about time so I want to open up if anybody's got any questions you can
01:00:03 you can ask them
01:00:04 please wait for my mic but she's doing everything he's also he's also in the microphone I think
01:00:17 we can turn that off we don't have to look at my phone number anymore hi sorry first
01:00:25 thank you to all for this amazing amazing day because we really think that we've learned
01:00:31 a lot from this but my question is for you Lauren you mentioned something that I wanted
01:00:35 to ask you right away you said that most of the time you work with people you know which
01:00:41 you know at this point I don't know I know of your company and but how do how does one
01:00:47 come to you if we don't you don't know us and we have a or at least we think we have
01:00:51 a great project and we want to have a relationship with you and start yeah and you can just talk
01:00:57 to me and you can write me an email and if you don't write it in the middle of Berlin
01:01:02 can Venice or Toronto I'm will reply pretty quickly if I don't reply please we send it
01:01:08 that happens and we do like always work with people we know but we're also super open to
01:01:13 discover new projects I always tell the same kind of jokey story that once we get an email
01:01:19 that I hadn't even seen because I thought it was spam the object line was greetings
01:01:22 from India so I didn't read it I erased it and then actually it was like a filmmaker
01:01:27 from India with his first film that we watched that we loved that went to be like an amazing
01:01:33 success it's a chat on chat on your time Hannah and the film was the disciple in Venice competition
01:01:39 it was a second film and the first one was called so like we do get like lots of random
01:01:44 people who contact us and sometimes we tell them and think like it's not for us because
01:01:50 what we do is pretty specific also like the circuit that we work in is like pretty specific
01:01:54 we mainly work on feature films who many work on documentary films that have like a like
01:01:58 a like a theatrical dimension as well so we're not like the right fit for everybody but always
01:02:04 open to chat and to look at something and to read something and potentially watch something
01:02:08 as well it's always interesting for us also to see what's around and discover films and
01:02:12 we will tell you if we don't like it which we always do often to partners that we love
01:02:17 and that we like to work with if they come with a film and we don't feel it's like a
01:02:21 good fit for us we also tell them no so that's that's something you have to be prepared for
01:02:26 but otherwise just get in touch I'm always happy to hear thank you
01:02:32 just to jump in quickly before we go back I'd be interested to ask Catherine you the
01:02:37 same kind of question if a filmmaker's thinking of trying to get an editor on board what should
01:02:42 they be thinking about because not all editors work the same so what what should they be
01:02:47 thinking about and how do they go about doing that
01:02:53 I really didn't get it because of the echo so okay I asked you the same question but
01:02:58 for editors so how what should filmmakers or producers be thinking about when they're
01:03:04 trying to get involved with an editor and how to make the approach I guess
01:03:10 well I guess there is no no rule here because a lot of directors have editors that they've
01:03:21 been working with for a long time but I guess sometimes there are instances where the producer
01:03:32 or the director somehow editor is counting is scouting it has to do with the with the
01:03:42 co-production countries a lot of times so when the producer manages to secure a co-production
01:03:50 with another country they would be able to hire professionals from that country this
01:03:57 is actually the always the case when I was when I was hired to work on foreign films
01:04:07 and you know I think there are directors that sometimes get in touch with the DOPs or editors
01:04:21 or composers whose work they had seen in in other films or in you know noticed that film
01:04:32 festivals and all that so it's usually a matter of just getting in in contact with a person
01:04:39 or you know with the agent this is not my case of course I'm not represented by an agent
01:04:48 and it's usually best to get in touch to hire an editor way in advance like months or even
01:05:00 one year before it's probably better even more so if you want to get him in him or her
01:05:08 involved into the you know reading the final version of the script and discussing having
01:05:18 a few talks before the shooting and all that so any other questions we can finish on time
01:05:30 thank you thank you