The Batman Spoiler Talk
WARNING: This video contains massive spoilers for “The Batman” directed by Matt Reeves and starring Robert Pattinson, Zoë Kravitz, Colin Farrell, Jeffrey Wright and Paul Dano. Matt Reeves' “The Batman” is that sets up a lot of ground to explore for potential sequels and HBO Max spinoffs. In this video, CinemaBlend’s Sean O’Connell and Hannah Saulic review and discuss “The Batman” with spoilers.
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00:00 When that light hits the sky, it's not just a call.
00:05 It's a warning.
00:09 - Hey everybody, it's Hannah Sollick,
00:19 the head of video here at CinemaBlend
00:20 with Sean O'Connell, our managing editor,
00:23 and I was almost about to say an author
00:25 of the "Release a Snyder Cut" book
00:26 because that was just a very weird--
00:27 - You can still say that.
00:30 - That's okay, I'll allow you to say that.
00:31 - I'm out of practice,
00:32 but we're here to talk about the "Batman" spoilers.
00:36 - This will be fun.
00:37 - I'm so glad we're doing a spoiler conversation
00:39 because it was tough to do a spoiler-free review
00:41 and not get into all of the in-depth reasons
00:44 why I thought that this movie worked so well.
00:46 It's fascinating to think about that after Nolan
00:51 and after Snyder and going back to Burton
00:55 that there's still fresh ways into this character
00:59 and obviously, you know, he has decades upon decades
01:02 of comic book issues and artists and creators on that side
01:07 that you can draw from, but it's just,
01:09 I can't get over how different this feels
01:11 that Matt Reeves has done with this character
01:13 and with this world of Gotham,
01:15 how different it is from everything else.
01:17 Someone tweeted this and I wish I could give them credit
01:20 'cause I can't think of who it was,
01:21 but they were like, "I went back and watched 'The Dark Knight'
01:23 and it was just like, 'Oh, this is just Chicago.'"
01:25 Right?
01:26 Matt Reeves' Gotham looks so different
01:29 and it's different from Burton
01:31 and it's different from what Nolan tried to attempt
01:34 and it, to me, is the closest that we've seen
01:36 to the comics at this level.
01:40 And a part of the reason why I love this movie
01:41 as much as I do is because I was so engrossed
01:44 in everything going on in Gotham
01:46 that no matter what avenue the film decided to go down,
01:50 whether it was gonna follow some stuff
01:51 that was going on at the Penguin's Club
01:53 or if it was going to the orphanage
01:56 where the Dropheads were camping out
01:59 and you're learning more about the history of Gotham,
02:01 like, I was engrossed in all of it
02:03 and I couldn't get enough.
02:05 And so I had mentioned that when the three hours were over,
02:08 I would've sat there for three more hours
02:09 because I just wanted to keep learning more
02:11 about this universe and I thought
02:12 that that was pretty impressive
02:14 that Matt Reeves pulled that off.
02:15 - Yeah, I felt the same way.
02:16 I was like, when it ended, I was like, "Did that?"
02:19 I was like, "Is that my favorite Batman film?"
02:22 And I had that thought for a second,
02:23 but then I did re-watch 'The Dark Knight' over the weekend
02:25 and I was like, "No, but I think it might be
02:27 "a close second."
02:28 - You just couldn't let me go, could you?
02:32 - It was interesting 'cause I had a lot of friends
02:33 who went to go see it that aren't really
02:35 comic book movie following type people
02:38 and so they, I think, were expecting something
02:41 a little bit more along the lines of that
02:43 'cause Nolan's films and even Zack Snyder's films,
02:45 obviously, were so big.
02:47 And so I got a lot of texts from people being like,
02:49 "I think I'm missing something."
02:50 And once I kind of explained to them,
02:52 this is supposed to be a neo-noir detective Batman,
02:55 really intimate story.
02:56 They were like, "Oh, I wish I would have known
02:58 "that going in."
02:59 And then for a lot of them, it kind of changed
03:01 their thoughts on it, which I thought was interesting.
03:03 - No, I am.
03:04 - But I loved it.
03:05 I thought it was such a great idea to kind of
03:07 shrink it down a little bit.
03:09 But to your point, even in shrinking it down
03:11 and focusing so much on Gotham, it still felt so expansive
03:14 and I'm so excited for all the HBO Max stuff
03:16 that they're gonna do.
03:17 - And there's so many really interesting characters
03:19 that populate all the different corners of this world.
03:22 Like, you know, Penguin, more of him, please, more of him.
03:26 - Yeah, I was kind of surprised how little
03:27 he was in the film.
03:29 - But I think that that's okay.
03:30 (upbeat music)
03:32 Like one of the issues that gets leveled
03:34 at the previous Batman films,
03:36 and I mean, even going back to like the Schwarzenegger one,
03:39 is that there are too many villains
03:40 and sometimes they steal too much focus away from.
03:43 And you know what?
03:44 I don't know, how did you feel about this?
03:46 I again felt that Batman was,
03:48 I thought he was overshadowed by his villains.
03:50 If I was gonna talk about the performances
03:52 in this movie that really got me,
03:54 I would mention John Turturro
03:57 and I would mention Colin Farrell
03:58 and I would mention Paul Dano before I even got to Pattinson.
04:01 So, you know, is that good for a Batman movie?
04:05 I'm not quite sure.
04:06 - What do you think?
04:07 - I really didn't think the villains overshadowed him.
04:09 I thought he really, really pulled your attention,
04:12 but again, I just love him.
04:13 So maybe that's why.
04:15 - Sure.
04:16 - There's been a lot of chatter online about John Turturro
04:19 and some people really like him as Carmine
04:21 and some people really don't,
04:22 which I thought was kind of shocking.
04:23 - Oh, interesting.
04:24 That's how I would want him to be played,
04:25 is sort of this sinister, pulling all the strings.
04:29 And yet, you know,
04:30 even when you think you've gotten to the next level
04:32 of who is in charge,
04:34 I guess this is a spoilery,
04:35 so we can discuss the fact that, you know,
04:37 he has bought almost everybody
04:39 and he's in charge of almost everybody.
04:41 And so to that end,
04:43 I wanted to discuss the fact that like,
04:44 I was pretty disappointed that of all the villains
04:47 that they take off the board at the end of this one,
04:49 that Falcone is one of the one who gets killed.
04:52 And I even, someone asked,
04:54 and they were like, "Is he definitely dead?"
04:55 I mean, he looked definitely dead to me.
04:59 It's cool that that last shot of Penguin
05:01 is him sort of overlooking Gotham
05:02 and they're having the voiceover about, you know,
05:05 a power vacuum having to be filled.
05:07 And I'm sure that Penguin's gonna try
05:09 to fill that void kind of thing.
05:11 But I don't know, I love Turturro
05:12 and I would love to see him stick around
05:14 for at least one more movie.
05:15 - Let's move on to Catwoman.
05:19 You mentioned in your spoiler-free review
05:21 that you had some issues with how she was used,
05:23 but you didn't want to get into them
05:25 because obviously spoilers,
05:26 but now that we're talking spoilers,
05:27 please elaborate on your Catwoman thoughts.
05:30 - I thought that there were a lot of story elements
05:34 attached to Selina that they could have picked one or two
05:38 and left it alone.
05:39 Like the subplot with her missing roommate, girlfriend,
05:44 and then when she was trying to steal money
05:46 from Falcone's organization.
05:48 And then when she was Falcone's daughter
05:50 and then, you know, the love interest of Bruce,
05:53 like it felt like she had five or six storylines
05:57 orbiting around her.
05:58 - You got a lot of cats.
05:59 - I thought that Zoe Kravitz did a great job
06:02 with all the things that she was being handed.
06:04 I thought the movie handed her too many different things.
06:07 - Don't worry, honey, I can take care of myself.
06:09 - I'm like, you know, scratching at tiny little things
06:11 to see like why it's not a perfect movie.
06:13 But I guess you disagree?
06:15 - I was not pulled out of it by that.
06:17 I will say by that, God, if I could talk.
06:20 I will say that there were certain times in the movie
06:23 where you said something interesting
06:25 in your interview with her,
06:26 where you kind of said like,
06:27 it seemed like she was playing a part
06:29 in each scene that she was in.
06:31 While I was watching the movie,
06:32 there were certain times where just in her scenes,
06:34 I would get pulled out of it a little bit.
06:36 'Cause I was like, I don't understand how in this scene,
06:38 she was that way.
06:39 And in this scene, she's now this way,
06:40 which is maybe some of what you're talking about
06:42 a little bit.
06:43 But then once I kind of started reflecting on the movie
06:46 a little bit more and thought about that interview
06:48 where she's telling you that like,
06:50 that was kind of the whole thing
06:51 is that Selina is still kind of figuring out who she is
06:54 and putting on these different personas,
06:56 depending on who she's around.
06:57 I was like, oh, that's really interesting actually.
07:00 And maybe that's kind of like part of what we were supposed
07:02 to get with her was sort of this like uneasy,
07:05 like who are you type of feeling.
07:07 'Cause she doesn't even really know yet.
07:10 'Cause she's not Catwoman yet.
07:11 And she's not maybe like,
07:13 'cause I also kind of expected her
07:14 to be a little bit smarter than Batman at sometimes.
07:17 'Cause like Catwoman traditionally
07:18 kind of like plays him a little bit.
07:20 And I didn't really get that vibe
07:22 from the two of them at all during this.
07:24 But then I kept having to tell myself like,
07:26 wait, this is still like a really, really like young version
07:30 of her that isn't quite maybe the character
07:32 that I expected it to be.
07:34 But I do just want to quickly say about Catwoman
07:35 before we move on.
07:36 I overall really enjoyed Zoe Kravitz's performance.
07:39 And I obviously love Catwoman
07:41 and I'm excited to see what Matt Reeves
07:43 potentially does with her, if anything.
07:46 I think I want to give Wondermeg a shout out her channel.
07:48 She said something that I totally aligned with.
07:51 She said, it just makes you like happy to be a woman.
07:54 And that is something I totally resonated with.
07:56 If you have not watched her review,
07:57 I'll put a link in our description,
07:58 but you guys should go do that.
07:59 - Nice.
08:00 - Yeah, it was just, yeah, she's awesome.
08:02 - Let me ask you a question about Catwoman
08:04 before we move off the topic.
08:06 Because they went their own ways
08:08 and she kind of left Gotham,
08:09 would you be okay with her not coming back for the sequel?
08:12 Like can they leave her on the shelf
08:13 and go with a different character?
08:15 - Yeah, I kind of thought that was the point
08:17 of like, it was either gonna like potentially be a series.
08:19 And I'd love to see like in a sequel,
08:21 we go see some other villains.
08:22 And then maybe like in the third one,
08:24 we have like full force Catwoman come back
08:27 after she's kind of gone off and became Catwoman.
08:30 You know, like I don't necessarily know
08:32 that we need to see that with Rob's becoming,
08:35 you know, Bruce and Batman and all this other stuff.
08:38 'Cause we already know that Matt Reeves
08:39 probably wants to do stuff with other villains.
08:41 So I think like almost having her--
08:42 - It'd be interesting if when she returns,
08:44 - Yes.
08:45 - If Bruce is so different.
08:47 Well, she doesn't know that he's Bruce.
08:48 That's interesting.
08:49 - Yeah.
08:50 - Because she hasn't figured it out
08:52 by the end of this movie.
08:52 Okay, that's cool.
08:53 Plenty of ground to cover.
08:55 - Yes.
08:55 Okay, let's talk about the Riddler.
08:59 You think that there's a missed opportunity
09:01 about the Riddler's motivation?
09:03 Let's get into that.
09:05 - Only because, and tell me if you thought this as well too,
09:08 I really thought that the journalist who got killed
09:12 because Thomas Wayne went to Falcone
09:14 was going to be the Riddler's father or parent
09:17 or to have some connection to the Riddler.
09:19 Like that to me would have been the motivation
09:21 that he needed of like Thomas Wayne stepped in
09:25 and I lost my father because of it.
09:26 And I'm an orphan, you know, for that reason.
09:28 So when they didn't make that connection
09:31 and the Riddler just ended up being this online guy,
09:33 you know, with 500 followers who is mad online
09:38 and he's motivating all these different people.
09:39 I was like, oh, well, okay.
09:40 So your motivation is that there's corruption in your city
09:42 and you kind of hate that, which is fine.
09:44 That's great.
09:45 But I thought it would have been a nice, maybe too tidy,
09:47 but it would have been a tidy way to sort of tie in.
09:49 Like, otherwise what was the point of the journalist
09:51 beyond saying that Thomas Wayne made a mistake, I guess.
09:54 - Well, so you know, the villain Hush?
09:56 - Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
09:57 - They're saying that basically like that could be a tie
10:00 to teasing Hush in the sequel.
10:02 And like that would have been Hush's dad,
10:04 which I thought was interesting.
10:06 'Cause there's also a shot that says Hush in like Riddler.
10:10 - I've heard that too. Yes.
10:12 But I didn't see it myself.
10:14 I want to go back and see that.
10:15 But that, yes, that could also make sense.
10:17 Which again, I kind of love the fact that Matt Reeves
10:20 is like laying out plot threads that he can pick up and go
10:24 in many different directions.
10:25 But outside of that,
10:26 I thought this was the perfect way to do Riddler
10:30 in this universe.
10:31 You know, like he can't because he often can be,
10:35 which is why Jim Carrey played him that way.
10:37 The over the top sort of comical can't be.
10:39 - Joygasm!
10:40 - And the way you pointed out earlier of how, you know,
10:44 Batman's not the sharpest tool in the shed just yet.
10:47 - Yeah.
10:48 - I love the fact that like the murder weapon that he uses
10:51 for the first, you know, crime is the one that reveals
10:54 the ultimate plan.
10:55 And if Batman had figured that out, you know,
10:57 20 minutes into the movie.
10:58 - There are a lot of things I feel like Batman should have
11:00 figured out like a little quicker, but again, being nitpicky.
11:04 - Oh, you're really not as smart as I thought you were.
11:07 - Did you find it pretty funny that like
11:10 Spanish noun conjugating from the penguin ended up becoming
11:17 a massive clue?
11:18 - I thought that was really funny.
11:20 (laughs)
11:21 I thought Colin Farrell was really funny in this movie.
11:23 I laughed like basically every time he was on screen.
11:27 I thought he was great.
11:28 - Yes.
11:29 And I think he's playing it that way.
11:31 Like it's okay for us to find him somewhat comical.
11:34 These villains are supposed to have an element of, you know,
11:37 comedy to them.
11:39 And Riddler did not have it.
11:40 Riddler was pretty disturbing.
11:42 And so it was great to have a balance
11:44 of the penguin that way.
11:46 - The other thing I noticed too,
11:47 'cause I did rewatch "The Dark Knight" this weekend
11:49 after I saw the Batman is like,
11:50 there are a lot of parallels between the way that
11:53 Heath Ledger's Joker interacts with Batman
11:55 and this storyline with the Riddler.
11:57 It's definitely way, obviously more like on the nose,
12:00 but maybe it's just- - Okay, so which one
12:01 do you prefer?
12:02 I'm putting you on the spot.
12:03 - Oh God.
12:04 - Joker-Batman interrogation scene
12:06 or Riddler-Batman Arkham Asylum scene?
12:09 Come on, gotta choose one.
12:11 - It's Joker-Batman.
12:12 - I wanted to see what you'd do.
12:14 And you didn't disappoint.
12:16 - Give me the Arkham scene.
12:17 (dramatic music)
12:20 - I've been trying to reach you.
12:24 - Fear the God!
12:25 - Really? - For this reason.
12:26 - Okay.
12:27 - Yeah, for this reason.
12:28 I really loved where Bruce thought
12:32 that the Riddler knew his identity.
12:35 - Oh, I know. - And the way
12:36 that they play that.
12:37 - That was so good. - It's terrific.
12:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:39 It's really subtle and it's great, like right before it,
12:42 when he looks like a file is gonna get unlocked
12:45 and he says to Gordon, he's like,
12:47 maybe this is all coming to an end.
12:49 'Cause he thinks he's gonna get outed, right?
12:50 He thinks his secret identity is gonna get revealed.
12:53 - And the way that he like looks at the camera recording
12:55 in the corner as like Riddler's talking
12:58 and just like the look in his eyes,
13:00 you're just like, oh God.
13:01 - I don't care what happens to me.
13:03 - Lies!
13:03 - And then when he says we didn't get him,
13:06 he's the only target we didn't get.
13:07 And you can sense in Pattinson the relief of like,
13:11 oh, he doesn't know. - He's like, I still got you.
13:13 (laughing)
13:14 - Take that, you wicked psycho!
13:16 - Great, it was great.
13:17 I thought they handled that perfectly.
13:20 - Yes.
13:20 - And I also thought, and I mentioned this to Matt Reeves,
13:23 I forget if it's on Real Blender in our interview,
13:26 that this was the first time that a villain in Riddler
13:30 really believed that he,
13:32 this is what sets Riddler apart from Joker.
13:34 Joker was an agent of chaos who just kept
13:36 messing with everything.
13:38 Whereas Riddler, I think, honestly believed
13:40 that he was working with Batman.
13:42 You know, like when Batman says,
13:45 I'm not part of your scheme, you're a lunatic kind of thing.
13:48 I think Riddler was genuinely surprised and upset,
13:51 you know, 'cause he was like, we were doing this together.
13:53 You brought him into the light.
13:54 I could never do that, you know?
13:55 Like, I don't have those abilities.
13:57 - Just completely delusional.
13:58 - I'm smart, but I don't have.
13:59 Yeah, it's great!
14:00 It's great, like his whole motivation,
14:03 his criminal motivation is that he thinks
14:04 he's partnered with Batman,
14:05 and I think that that's fantastic.
14:07 - That is really good. - I think that's a really
14:07 great element that the other Batman movies
14:09 have not necessarily explored.
14:11 - Yeah, you're so right.
14:12 And Paul Dano plays that so,
14:13 like I could not imagine anyone else doing that,
14:17 the way that he sells,
14:18 'cause you almost kind of start to feel bad for him
14:21 in that moment where he's just like, wait, what?
14:23 You're like, oh God, you're like really sick.
14:26 - Yes. - Which, not that I feel bad
14:28 for Riddler, 'cause he's a serial killer, but.
14:30 - But like in the early stages of his character,
14:34 like the places that he can go, you know,
14:36 now that that has sort of been unlocked,
14:39 can get really, really menacing,
14:40 especially if he's, you know,
14:42 manipulated by the guy in the cell next to him.
14:44 - Do we wanna talk about that right now?
14:46 Should we just segue into that?
14:47 - Are we getting into that?
14:48 - Sure. - Yeah, sure, why not?
14:50 Okay. - So it's obviously Joker.
14:52 - Me, I was right here.
14:54 - Matt Reeves has said in interviews
14:56 that he's not Joker yet.
14:58 - I wanted this character to be a character
15:00 who hadn't yet declared himself,
15:01 but all the seeds were there.
15:04 - And he has said that the reason why he's in Arkham
15:06 is because-- - You know,
15:07 the unseen prisoner is one of the characters
15:09 that he would have confronted in year one,
15:11 and that's how he ended up there.
15:12 So they have a relationship.
15:14 There's actually a,
15:16 one of the lines from the scene that's not in
15:20 is that unseen prisoner says to him,
15:21 he says, "It's almost our anniversary, isn't it?"
15:23 - If you read on CinemaBlender, in case you missed this,
15:26 there's a deleted scene that Matt Reeves had.
15:28 - That involves the unseen prisoner
15:30 that you see near the end of the movie,
15:32 and Batman goes to him in order to profile the Riddler
15:35 because he's being written to.
15:36 - And it would have been a little bit more
15:37 back and forth of them to show that like,
15:40 Batman's a little bit leaning on him,
15:42 but this guy knows that Batman needs him,
15:44 so he's messing with him.
15:45 So he's not Joker yet.
15:46 So that makes me think that,
15:50 like, there's still the element of him
15:51 falling into the chemicals.
15:53 Like, is that all still due to happen?
15:54 - Well, so his face, you could kind of see in the shot,
15:56 like, he's got some sort of like,
15:58 - Is it the scars?
16:00 - It kind of looks like he's had like acid
16:03 spilled on his face or something,
16:05 which is why it's so like disfigured and not quite scarred,
16:08 but just like, almost like burnt a little bit.
16:11 And they were saying like,
16:12 how that could be Matt Reeves' way of showing,
16:15 like, in a realistic way,
16:16 like what would happen if someone fell
16:17 into a vat of chemicals.
16:20 - Okay.
16:20 - But obviously we didn't really see it.
16:23 - The first time that I watched that scene,
16:26 and you only see him through the little hole,
16:28 before he laughs, I thought, is this his two-face?
16:32 'Cause you're right, I really did think that it was.
16:34 Now he's not, 'cause Matt Reeves has come out
16:36 and said that it's Joker, you know?
16:37 Or he says it's going to be Joker,
16:40 and obviously the laugh at the end gives it away.
16:41 But you're right, that's what the face looked like.
16:43 And did his nose look really bulbous to you?
16:46 I noticed that on the second time through.
16:48 - Oh, I didn't know.
16:49 I was just looking at his eye,
16:51 and I could see little perforations almost on his skin.
16:54 And I was just, well, full disclosure,
16:56 I was spoiled for that before I saw the movie,
16:58 so I kind of knew what was going on anyway, so.
17:01 - Oh, so why, from editing all of our stuff?
17:03 - From editing your video.
17:04 No, that, and then I accidentally clicked
17:06 on an article that was like, "It's Joker!"
17:08 And I was like, why did I do that to myself?
17:11 - But it has to be, like, there has to be a Joker.
17:14 - There's no way.
17:15 - Like, if they're turning Riddler
17:18 into a, you know, Zodiac-type masked serial killer,
17:23 you know, and Penguin isn't the Danny DeVito
17:26 of "Batman Returns,"
17:27 he's legitimately, like, a crime boss in a club.
17:31 Like, I'm fascinated to see what this interpretation
17:34 of Joker is in this world, right?
17:36 Like, even with Heath Ledger,
17:38 there was an element of him being larger than the room,
17:41 you know, and hiding his backstory.
17:43 - Larger than that movie.
17:45 - Larger than that movie, for sure.
17:47 So I'm fascinated to see what Barry Keegan
17:51 and Matt Reeves specifically do with that character
17:53 when they move forward.
17:54 - So do you think that he's gonna be, like,
17:56 a main part of a sequel?
17:58 Or, like, is that something that you would wanna see?
18:00 'Cause I've kind of seen that some people
18:01 are, like, jokered out right now,
18:03 and the idea that he could be the main villain
18:05 in the second movie is not so exciting to people.
18:08 How do you feel about that?
18:09 - I would be okay if they left him on the shelf
18:13 for one more film.
18:15 And even used him, I've seen people sort of refer
18:18 to it this way, as, like, a Hannibal Lecter-type character.
18:21 - Oh, that would be so good.
18:23 That would be so good.
18:24 - Yeah, like, maybe Matt Reeves took that scene out
18:27 of this movie because he will use it a little bit more
18:29 in the second one, of Batman having to go to Arkham
18:33 to talk to this Joker character to get a sense of,
18:36 you know, what else is happening.
18:38 Because one of the villains that I've heard suggested,
18:41 and I would love for them to pursue,
18:43 not by anybody official,
18:44 but is the idea of the Court of Owls, which is this--
18:46 - Oh, yeah, Robert Pattinson is, like, really, really
18:49 wanting that.
18:51 - He's pushing for that?
18:52 - Yeah. - It makes so much sense
18:53 because the Court of Owls have reportedly been
18:57 around Gotham for centuries,
19:00 and all of the corruption that sort of stems
19:02 from that city starts with them,
19:04 'cause you realize they've been influencing
19:05 everybody of power.
19:07 And so-- - So does that mean
19:09 that it started with the Waynes and the Arkhams?
19:12 In this Matt Reeves? - Yes.
19:14 It could, yes, it absolutely could.
19:17 Like, if you introduce the Court of Owls
19:19 and Bruce finds out through some way, shape, or form
19:21 that his mother or father or both were corrupted
19:25 or part of the Court of Owls through that,
19:27 like, how does that tear apart this already emo Batman
19:30 who's super sad about everything?
19:33 If he learns that about his parents,
19:34 that would be devastating.
19:36 - Yeah. - So that's where
19:37 I would love for them to go.
19:38 - And if Batman has to almost turn to this Joker-type person
19:42 as a Hannibal Lecter figure to figure out
19:45 what's going on with the Court of Owls,
19:47 Matt Reeves is teeing up, he's teeing up a home run,
19:52 you know, like a legendary historic storytelling,
19:55 if he can pull that off, that would be outstanding.
19:58 Robert Pattinson's right,
19:59 they should totally do a Court of Owls next.
20:00 - Wow. - Nice.
20:01 - Speaking of Robert Pattinson,
20:06 there, I think most people online are like,
20:09 yeah, great Batman, but some people really, really
20:13 did not like his Bruce Wayne.
20:15 And I know that you said that in your spoiler-free review,
20:17 like, he's just not in it enough.
20:19 - Well, I think it's, he's doing for Bruce Wayne
20:22 what Bruce Wayne has to be doing in year two
20:25 of his quest to clean up Gotham, right?
20:27 Which is essentially,
20:28 Robert Pattinson's interpretation of him
20:31 never wants to be Bruce,
20:32 he wants to be Batman the whole time.
20:34 He wants, anytime that he's forced to be Bruce
20:37 for any reason, whether it's to meet with the financiers,
20:40 you know, or to attend this memorial service,
20:42 he's pained, you know, like he does not want to have
20:45 to do it, he views it as wasting time
20:48 when he could be in the cowl, being outside
20:50 and fighting crime.
20:52 And so eventually, and I think towards the end
20:55 of this movie, which sets up him to become Bruce
20:59 in a different way, is that Batman realizes
21:01 that he can be the symbol of hope instead
21:04 of this symbol of constant vengeance.
21:06 And with hope comes the translation of him becoming
21:10 this playboy billionaire, essentially,
21:13 who shows himself around Gotham and becomes this icon
21:17 that Gotham can look up to in Bruce Wayne.
21:20 And so I think that that's the natural evolution
21:22 of the character, and I'm not that surprised
21:24 that in this one, he's trying not to be Bruce
21:27 as much as possible.
21:28 And that's a little bit why Alfred's saying to him also,
21:30 "Hey, you're still a Wayne."
21:32 You know, there's things that you have to do as a Wayne
21:34 and pushing him forward into the spotlight that way.
21:37 - Yeah, it almost kind of seemed to me
21:38 like he didn't even know who Bruce Wayne was.
21:41 Like that just wasn't even like a persona.
21:43 - Who are you under there?
21:44 - I'm not so sure.
21:45 - I never thought of it this way,
21:46 but it stands out more in this film,
21:49 is that if he's the playboy Bruce Wayne, you know,
21:52 then him mourning the loss of his parents
21:54 is shortchanged a little bit, right?
21:57 Like because he's being social and out on the town,
22:01 whereas with this one for the first time
22:03 in a really long time, maybe with Keaton early on,
22:06 that I feel that like he's consumed by the grief
22:09 of the loss of his parents.
22:11 And all he wants to do is get vengeance for them.
22:13 And he can only do that in the suit,
22:15 according to him right now.
22:16 That changes by the end.
22:18 You know, he does realize,
22:19 "Oh, I can be a symbol for hope instead for this city
22:23 and still clean up the streets
22:24 while I'm providing a different sort of light
22:28 for the citizens of Gotham."
22:29 But for the majority of this three hour run,
22:32 he's consumed by his grief.
22:33 And I think that that's really, really appropriate
22:35 for Bruce at this stage.
22:36 - Yeah, I wonder if you could almost,
22:37 I'd have to pay attention to this more on a rewatch,
22:40 but like if you could almost kind of separate the film
22:42 by like stages of grief almost,
22:44 'cause it seems obviously it's kind of acceptance
22:47 and clearly we get the anger part in there.
22:49 - I'm vengeance.
22:50 - I don't know though that I can see like Robert Pattinson's
22:53 Bruce Wayne being, you know how like Christian Bale
22:55 was like really, really playful.
22:56 And like, I don't ever see like Robert Pattinson
23:01 being Bruce Wayne that's like a playful playboy,
23:03 like got this like smugness to him, you know?
23:06 I mean, maybe.
23:07 - Oh, I totally disagree. - It'd be interesting to see.
23:10 - Really?
23:10 - I think Pattinson could really do that, yes.
23:13 - No, well, yeah he could. - And I think he would have
23:14 a lot of fun doing that.
23:15 - Okay, in the sequel, if they just pop on
23:17 and it's Bruce Wayne at a party
23:18 with like two girls on his arm,
23:20 he's like cracking jokes.
23:21 Would you be like, what the (beep)
23:23 - All right, yeah.
23:24 Maybe it shouldn't happen that quickly.
23:26 - Yeah.
23:27 - But he could, because again, like Bruce is still a costume
23:32 right, that he's wearing.
23:33 Like he's not Bruce Wayne playboy.
23:36 He's never going to be that,
23:37 but maybe he knows that he has to put that image forward.
23:41 Like he's pretending to be him
23:42 as much as he's pretending to be the Batman.
23:44 So I can see Pattinson doing that in a scene.
23:45 - I would love to see like Alfred giving him lessons
23:48 on that too.
23:49 - That would be funny.
23:51 Yes.
23:52 Now that would be really funny because yes, I could see him.
23:54 If like, say they opened the second movie
23:56 and he's at a party and he has, like you said,
23:59 two supermodels on either arm.
24:01 And then he comes down to the cave and he's just like,
24:02 I hate it.
24:03 He goes right back to his
24:05 - Just starts sobbing. - My Chemical Relations Bruce.
24:07 Yeah, yeah.
24:08 Putting on the mascara immediately.
24:11 - Oh my God. - The eye black.
24:12 - Dick.
24:13 - We're going to talk about Robin.
24:16 I want to talk about Robin.
24:17 - Yes, let's talk about Robin.
24:19 - That's my transition.
24:20 Go ahead.
24:21 - That's your transition, go.
24:23 - Yep.
24:24 - So I had this theory that I thought was fantastic
24:26 and Matt Reeves shot me down.
24:29 - Oh no.
24:30 - Which is, did I tell you this one?
24:31 Did I tell you this one yet or not?
24:33 Oh, I swore that the mayor's son
24:37 was being set up to be Robin for this world
24:42 because he just kept coming back.
24:44 Like you see him early on,
24:45 or it's hinted that he's the one
24:47 who found his father's body.
24:49 He shows up at the funeral and Bruce rescues him
24:51 from the truck that's barreling into the church.
24:54 And then when he showed up a third time at the arena,
24:57 I was like, oh, this kid's totally going to be Robin.
25:00 And then Bruce or Batman is carrying him out
25:03 and laying him on the gurney
25:05 that's getting carried away by the helicopter.
25:06 And I was like, all right, Matt Reeves,
25:08 enough is enough.
25:09 You've shown us that this boy is going to become
25:12 Bruce's mentee, but Matt Reeves says,
25:14 no, that is not the case.
25:16 And he legitimately seemed to be caught off guard
25:19 by the question because he was in our interview,
25:21 he was kind of like, oh, that's a pretty good idea.
25:24 And then he was like, no, I didn't think that,
25:27 but I liked that idea.
25:30 And he said, instead, this boy was just supposed to be
25:32 the manifestation of young Bruce and that, you know,
25:37 so literally Batman is like carrying young Bruce to safety
25:41 by the end of the movie.
25:42 And you know, the persona of Batman is rescuing.
25:45 Yeah.
25:45 Oh my God, that's so sweet.
25:47 Yeah, so Batman is saving little Bruce
25:50 and getting him on a helicopter.
25:52 So yeah, saving himself.
25:54 But wouldn't it be great if that kid became Robin?
25:56 Like, I think that Robin can fit into this world.
25:59 Yeah, and there was an interview early on where,
26:01 I've been watching a lot of Robert Pattinson interviews
26:03 if it hasn't been clear already,
26:05 but he did say that that would kind of be interesting
26:07 to see how a Robin could be in like,
26:11 where Catwoman's going,
26:12 Bloodhaven is where Nightwing traditionally
26:15 is kind of stationed.
26:17 So I wonder, like, there's definitely room for him
26:20 in this world, but I don't know how I would feel about it
26:23 like immediately being incorporated.
26:26 'Cause I still think there's a lot with like Bruce's journey
26:29 that I'd like to see before we like slap a teammate in there.
26:34 Fair enough.
26:36 That is interesting.
26:37 Let me ask you this question though,
26:38 to that end of adding a Robin,
26:41 could you see in any way, shape or form,
26:43 any other Justice League members appearing in this world?
26:46 Like would they fit?
26:48 Wouldn't it be odd?
26:49 If Superman or Wonder Woman showed up in this world?
26:50 If just Aquaman rides in when it floods
26:52 and Aquaman's like, "I got it, I got it."
26:54 Yeah, right?
26:55 Wouldn't that be odd?
26:57 'Cause it's so, I hate to use the term realistic,
27:00 but it's so realistic.
27:01 It's so grounded.
27:03 I couldn't imagine anyone with like legitimate superpowers
27:06 being in this world.
27:08 Right, right, right, right.
27:10 That like you couldn't explain through like logic
27:12 that would apply in our world.
27:15 I would think it's strange that like some people
27:17 have suggested villains like Mr. Freeze
27:19 because they would wanna see how Matt Reeves
27:21 does a Mr. Freeze.
27:22 I would totally wanna see how Matt Reeves
27:24 does a Poison Ivy though.
27:26 I can see it now.
27:27 Yeah, I wouldn't mind that.
27:30 Well, she at least, she has weird superpowers.
27:32 You'd have to get really creative
27:33 with like science and technology
27:36 and like have it established
27:37 that there's just like really evolved technology
27:40 for both Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy.
27:43 But yeah, I agree.
27:44 It doesn't seem logical.
27:47 It's interesting and I'd love to see it,
27:48 but I don't know that that's realistic,
27:51 I guess for lack of a better word.
27:53 Because if you reverse engineer like what Snyder had to do,
27:58 he introduced Superman first, right?
27:59 So you had a world in which Superman was established
28:02 as a realistic thing.
28:03 So then he countered that with the Batman
28:05 that Ben Affleck played,
28:08 which was this grizzled war weary, you know,
28:11 but like larger than the room Batman also, you know?
28:15 So here you have a Batman in year two
28:17 and by the time we get to his sequel,
28:19 he's still gonna be relatively inexperienced.
28:21 And I think the villains that he's gonna have to face
28:23 are still kind of like surface level villains.
28:25 Like you can't get to the place where he's fighting
28:26 like a Bane or someone like that
28:28 because it's too far fetched.
28:29 Vulnerable, but mistaken.
28:32 All right, before we wrap up,
28:35 I'm gonna ask you what's your favorite moment
28:39 from "The Batman"?
28:40 - The car chase.
28:43 The car chase is one of the most exciting Batman scenes
28:47 I think I've ever seen put to film.
28:49 The one, the car chase in "Batman v Superman"
28:52 is also terrific.
28:55 And this is right up there with it
28:57 because just the places where Matt Reeves puts cameras
29:01 and the sound of that engine, you know,
29:04 coming through the speakers is phenomenal.
29:07 And the fact that he did as much as he did physically
29:12 is incredible to me.
29:13 Like he tells a story about how like,
29:15 because they only had like one or two shots of getting it,
29:18 like all the penguin reaction shots that are in that thing
29:22 are really from just like the first or second time
29:24 that they ran through that sequence.
29:26 And I find that stuff to be amazing.
29:28 So I thought that car chase was amazing.
29:31 I thought it kept going.
29:33 Like I kept waiting for it to end and it just kept going.
29:35 And it was, yeah, it was terrific.
29:37 So that's my favorite.
29:38 What about yours?
29:39 What's yours?
29:40 I'm stuck between,
29:42 I thought the opening sequence with Batman
29:45 talking about using fear as a tool
29:47 and we're kind of going back and forth
29:48 between the gas station and the train.
29:50 I thought that was incredible and just set the tone so well.
29:53 And I, so it's between that.
29:55 And then I also just really loved at the end
29:58 when he like lights the flare and then like
30:01 pulls everyone out.
30:01 I was like, that is such a beautiful moment
30:04 that really got me in a way that I was not expecting to.
30:08 Like, I was like, oh my God, my feelings, emotions.
30:11 And the way that that candidate
30:13 had to like swallow her distrust of him, right?
30:17 Yeah. And embrace him.
30:19 Like when he sticks his hand out
30:20 and no one grabs it at first.
30:22 And then it's the kid, isn't it the kid?
30:25 It's the damn kid again, yes.
30:28 It's little Bruce, who's not Bruce,
30:30 reaching out and embracing.
30:31 Here's the thing.
30:32 I also thought that this movie did an amazing job
30:36 in a way that the other films haven't done before
30:39 of showing the level of distrust
30:42 that the Gotham citizens have for this person
30:47 who puts on a costume and investigates crime.
30:51 And it was like right from the very beginning
30:53 with Matt Reeves putting us in the point of view of Batman
30:56 when he's arriving at the crime scene
30:57 and you just feel the weight of the cop's eyes on him
31:01 of just like, who the hell is this guy?
31:03 Like, why is he here?
31:05 And how often so many people were like,
31:07 Gordon, you're gonna let him like touch evidence?
31:08 Like, what are you doing?
31:10 He's dressed up in a costume.
31:11 And for the first time, like watching this,
31:14 I was like, oh yeah, it's really weird what Batman does.
31:17 Like this dude puts on a costume
31:19 and thinks he's gonna show up at crime scenes
31:21 and like investigate stuff.
31:22 So when, yes, when he's in this situation
31:24 and trying to rescue these people,
31:26 here we've spent three hours of being told
31:28 like why it's weird that this guy does what he does.
31:31 - So when the new mayor looks at him and is like,
31:33 I can't really accept your help sort of thing.
31:36 It's groundbreaking when she finally does do it.
31:38 And then he leads them out of the thing
31:40 with that magnificent,
31:41 Greg Fraser's cinematography is just.
31:44 - Incredible.
31:45 - God, it's so beautiful.
31:47 - It is.
31:48 - Good choice.
31:49 That's a good choice.
31:50 - I have to say one thing really quickly
31:53 and then we can go.
31:54 But in your spoiler free review,
31:56 I asked you to rank the past three live action Batman,
32:00 which would be Pattinson, Ben Affleck and Christian Bale.
32:03 And I left my voice in there saying that.
32:05 So people would realize the context
32:07 and not yell at you for not including Keaton,
32:09 but alas, you got yelled at for not including Keaton.
32:12 So I don't know if you should do that in this video,
32:14 if you wanna do a separate video,
32:16 but do you wanna tell me where Keaton fits?
32:20 - Well, he's fourth, unfortunately.
32:23 And so, I mean, do you want me to keep going
32:24 with Clooney and Kilmer?
32:25 I might as well as well too.
32:27 - Go for it.
32:28 - Just throw them all out there.
32:30 I still think Affleck is first.
32:32 I think Pattinson is second and I put Christian Bale third.
32:37 I would put Keaton fourth then, and then Val Kilmer
32:41 and finally George Clooney last.
32:42 And no one's gonna argue,
32:43 like George Clooney will tell you that he's last.
32:45 And with Keaton, while as much as I understand
32:49 that like that's everyone's kinda
32:51 or most people's first Batman
32:52 and they adore him for that reason,
32:54 like he was totally overshadowed by his villains
32:57 in both of his movies.
32:59 Like Jack Nicholson.
33:00 - This town needs an enema.
33:02 - And we were just talking about how great Michelle Pfeiffer
33:05 was as Catwoman before this.
33:06 - Meow.
33:07 - And even Danny DeVito was completely memorable
33:09 as a penguin.
33:10 - I am a man.
33:11 I have a name.
33:12 - I love Christian Bale's Batman.
33:16 I don't love his Bruce Wayne as much.
33:20 And I love Affleck's like combined.
33:23 Affleck is terrific as both elements.
33:25 Like that scene where he's talking down to everybody
33:28 in BVS as a smarmy Bruce Wayne,
33:31 but he's doing it as a ruse because he's, you know,
33:34 investigating something that's going on there too
33:36 is terrific and all of his stuff.
33:38 Okay, here's a great prank.
33:39 - This is a separate video.
33:40 - You think so?
33:42 'Cause I want this.
33:44 Let's do this before we sign off on this.
33:46 Alfred Bruce Dynamics in the Batman,
33:53 in the Nolan films and Jeremy Irons in Affleck.
33:58 How are you ranking them?
33:59 - Well, it's Michael Caine and Christian Bale
34:01 are obviously first.
34:02 They just are.
34:03 - Oh, interesting.
34:05 - Then I was-
34:06 - Do you remember how bitchy Jeremy Irons is?
34:09 Like he's so bitchy.
34:10 (laughing)
34:11 - I hope the next generation of Waynes
34:13 won't inherit an empty wine cellar.
34:16 Not that there's likely to be a next generation.
34:18 - I was gonna put them second.
34:21 I do love that.
34:22 But Michael Caine is like my grandpa.
34:24 Like there's just something I can't,
34:27 like it's an emotional thing.
34:29 But yeah, so then Jeremy Irons is so bitchy.
34:32 It's so good.
34:33 - He always says his feelings are really getting hurt.
34:35 Like his feelings are getting hurt by Bruce.
34:38 - Go upstairs and socialize.
34:40 Some young lady from Metropolis will make you honest.
34:42 In your dreams, Alfred.
34:45 - Now I wanna go watch that now.
34:48 Oh my gosh.
34:49 So I'm guessing yours is, he's first.
34:51 Yeah.
34:52 - No, I still think I have to put Michael Caine first.
34:55 Michael Caine is tremendous as Alfred.
34:57 - But I did bloody tell you.
34:59 - I think he nudges out Jeremy Irons,
35:01 but it's a lot closer.
35:02 A lot closer than probably, than people understand.
35:05 - Well, hey, if you guys want us to do a video ranking
35:08 Batman and or Batman Alfred Dynamics
35:10 and getting a little bit more into why,
35:12 or maybe even the Batman movies,
35:14 which would be a whole thing,
35:16 please let us know in the comments
35:17 and also let us know what you thought of the Batman.
35:19 - Thank you for supporting Cinema Blend.
35:21 And hopefully we're going to be putting together more DC videos.
35:23 So keep it right here on our channel.