The Independent
  • last year
Brit-nominated artist Freya Ridings joins us on Love Lives to discuss her second album, Blood Orange, the pressure she faced to write new material, and why we love listening to sad music when we’re feeling down.

The “Lost Without You” singer reveals how she created the new album, which mixes disco, pop and rock alongside the melancholic, piano-driven ballads she’s known for, and opens up about how she channelled her heartbreak into songwriting from a young age.

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Transcript
00:00 I knew when I was 11, I was like,
00:01 this is now the thing that I'm going to never stop doing.
00:04 And it was weird, I was like,
00:06 I'll probably have other loves in my life,
00:08 but I feel like this could be the longest.
00:10 (upbeat music)
00:13 - Hello and welcome to Love Lives,
00:17 a podcast from The Independent,
00:19 where I, Olivia Petter, will be asking different guests
00:22 about the loves of their lives.
00:24 Today, I am so excited to be joined
00:26 by one of my favorite musicians, Freya Ridings.
00:29 She's back with her second album, Blood Orange,
00:31 which mixes disco and pop alongside
00:34 some of the more piano ballads
00:35 that she is known and loved for.
00:37 I'm so excited to talk to her all about it today
00:39 and also hear about the loves of her life.
00:41 So, hi Freya, how are you?
00:43 - Hi Olivia, thank you so much for having me.
00:45 I'm actually so excited.
00:46 This is the first in-person podcast I've done in so long.
00:49 - Oh good.
00:50 - We haven't been on Zoom for like so many years.
00:51 - It's so much more fun doing it in person.
00:53 I feel like you can have a real conversation.
00:55 So tell us about Blood Orange.
00:58 I know that this was your second album
01:00 following the huge success of your debut.
01:02 How did you feel when you sat down
01:04 to start writing something new?
01:07 - I was so terrified.
01:09 Daunted isn't even the right word, I was terrified.
01:12 And I think I'd just, I'd been on tour
01:13 with the first album, Lost Without You,
01:14 Half Moonlight and Castles,
01:16 and it was just this incredible slow-building wave
01:18 'cause I'd been writing songs since I was nine years old
01:21 and performing them since I was 11.
01:23 So by the time I was, I think I was 19
01:25 when I wrote Lost Without You,
01:26 so it was kind of, I felt like it had taken decades
01:28 to get to that point.
01:29 And then to find an independent label
01:31 who really championed that
01:32 and let me write my own songs,
01:34 that was a really big moment for me.
01:35 So it just, it felt like a real slow snowball
01:37 that just kind of turned into this massive thing
01:39 and then couldn't be stopped.
01:40 And it was just like, it was incredible.
01:42 2019, 2018 and '19 were some of the most
01:44 incredible years of my life.
01:45 And I think when you're in it,
01:47 you kind of are just running on the adrenaline.
01:49 And if you're going through a heartbreak at the same time,
01:51 you kind of use the adrenaline of being on tour
01:53 to kind of run from that.
01:54 Like there's so much going on.
01:55 And then for me to have to actually,
01:57 like, you know, with the pandemic and everything,
01:58 it was just like silence.
02:00 And I actually had to start thinking like,
02:01 what do I even want to say?
02:03 Like the pressure on a second album is just,
02:05 it's crushing.
02:06 And it's just something I've really struggled with.
02:08 So I was so actually really grateful
02:10 to have to come home from tour,
02:11 be back in my parents' living room and just be like,
02:14 okay, let's, it was almost like full circle.
02:16 Like this is back where I wrote Lost Without You,
02:17 back like this.
02:19 It's almost like, it felt like a weird fever dream
02:21 that had even happened in the first place,
02:22 but it was nice to kind of start from scratch again.
02:24 And then it's the story of the last three years of my life.
02:27 This album is kind of from heartbreak
02:29 into the euphoria of like that freedom
02:31 and then trying to rebuild yourself
02:33 into someone who's grown up, you know?
02:36 - So yeah, tell us about the process
02:37 'cause the album I think takes us on a real journey.
02:40 So I think when you started writing it,
02:42 you were fresh from a breakup.
02:43 So initially when you started writing it,
02:46 did you sort of envision this as like a kind of breakup?
02:49 - Exactly.
02:50 When people are like, why do you call it Blood Orange?
02:52 I'm like, I don't know.
02:53 Like, because at the time I didn't know
02:55 why it was gonna have these two halves.
02:57 I thought it was just gonna be a really, really sad album.
02:59 And I think the evolution of like
03:01 how much happier the music became
03:03 when I became happiest or like about halfway through
03:05 and like the amount of therapy I did
03:07 to kind of overcome so many.
03:08 I think that for the first album was a lot of like,
03:10 why is this happening to me?
03:11 And the second one is a lot more like
03:13 how am I the common denominator
03:14 in the things that keep happening to me?
03:15 Like, why do I keep going through the same pain
03:17 again and again and again?
03:19 I'm wanting to just grow as a person
03:20 and enjoy the fruits of that growth, but it's painful.
03:22 It was like physically painful,
03:24 but I'm so proud of what this album has given me.
03:26 And I'm just like, I'm so relieved
03:28 that it's finally out in the world after so long.
03:30 - And so share the story of what happened with our listeners.
03:33 'Cause I think it's a really lovely story
03:35 about what happened with you and your now husband
03:38 that kind of led to that lovely arch
03:40 that you have in the album.
03:41 - Yeah.
03:41 So when we started writing the album,
03:44 we weren't together and I was sort of,
03:46 yeah, I said, using the adrenaline
03:48 of like being, we were on tour in Australia.
03:50 We were like, you know, just so much adrenaline
03:53 that I could hide from it.
03:54 And I kind of put it out of my mind.
03:55 And we did a whole European tour
03:56 in the January before lockdown.
03:58 And so when we got on the flight
03:59 after the final show in Australia,
04:01 and I realised I was like, I'm coming home
04:02 for the first time in what felt like years,
04:04 like mentally as well, to be present
04:06 with the people that you love.
04:07 'Cause I think, you know, I love this job so much,
04:10 but I'd almost sacrificed like everything,
04:12 like every relationship I was like,
04:13 I have to put my blinkers on
04:14 and this is a once in a lifetime thing.
04:16 And I realised that the balance
04:17 had just gone completely out of whack.
04:19 And that's what the song "Weekends" is about,
04:21 is realising when you, you know,
04:22 you come home from those like professional engagements
04:26 with people who you love working with to like, to no one.
04:29 You're like, holy crap, hits you like a tonne of bricks.
04:31 - Yeah, I think it's really interesting
04:33 when musicians talk about that as well,
04:34 because there's this feeling of being on stage
04:37 in front of thousands of people
04:39 and performing all of these songs.
04:40 - It looks so social.
04:41 It looks like you just have thousands of friends.
04:43 And it's like, it's not necessarily the same thing
04:45 as one or two very good close friends.
04:46 - But then I can imagine it must be so weird
04:49 to leave the stage and go to your dressing room
04:52 and then you're just on your own.
04:53 - Yeah.
04:54 - It's a very confronting experience psychologically.
04:56 - When you have to like save your voice
04:57 or like, you know, you have to pace your voice as well.
04:59 You can't speak to people
05:00 and it's quite an isolating thing to do.
05:01 And you're suddenly back in like your bunk in a tour bus.
05:04 And the thing is like, I love playing live.
05:06 It's my favourite thing in the whole world.
05:07 I just think I'd kind of,
05:09 I'd sacrificed too much at that point.
05:11 And it made my life kind of by my own doing miserable.
05:15 And I was like, I really would love
05:17 to just rebalance this life and, you know,
05:20 put some love back into the people
05:21 who I know are there for me.
05:22 I just haven't seen them in so long.
05:24 And coming home, like it gave me the time
05:26 to be able to do that.
05:27 And I'm still so grateful for that time.
05:29 'Cause I don't know if I'd be in the same position
05:30 or be as happy now.
05:31 - And so how long were you guys apart for?
05:34 - So we have like, I'm trying to explain this to people.
05:37 So we met at an open mic night when I was 19.
05:39 - Did you?
05:40 - Yeah.
05:41 And my friend bailed on me last minute
05:42 and I was like, I'm not gonna go.
05:43 My mum's outside in the car.
05:44 She's like, just like wave if you're good.
05:46 And I'll beep and like, if you wanna leave,
05:47 just come back out and get in the car.
05:49 So I went in and I was like, I saw this like,
05:51 there was never any young people knew where I lived ever.
05:54 So basically I saw like a cool group of like people
05:56 my age and I was like, oh my God.
05:57 I got up, played my guitar, played Lost Without You,
05:59 played a couple of other songs that I'd written
06:01 that I would constantly like play around open mic nights.
06:04 And then I went and I sat on my own
06:05 and I was like, it's a bit scary.
06:07 'Cause I didn't really have many,
06:08 I didn't go to school in my area.
06:09 So I didn't have any local friends,
06:11 but I was trying to be brave and get out of my comfort zone.
06:13 And basically, yeah, he came over and he's like,
06:15 do you wanna come sit with us?
06:16 And I was like, yeah, you're so cool.
06:18 And so he's three years older than me.
06:20 He'd just come back from uni in Manchester.
06:22 We actually had a lot of friends in common,
06:23 but we didn't really realise.
06:25 And then that was when we sort of started a friendship
06:27 and we were best friends for like the next three years.
06:29 I think we just kind of naturally were like,
06:31 we respect each other as people.
06:32 Then we did try and write songs together
06:34 and then we kind of ended up in like a Civil War style band
06:37 where he played cello and I played acoustic guitar.
06:39 He was always like my biggest champion.
06:41 And I think like we've seen each other grow up
06:44 almost together and I was very, very young,
06:46 I think, when we met.
06:48 But it was kind of only when my mum almost died,
06:50 which was such a scary thing.
06:51 But basically she had like a pulmonary embolism
06:53 where like you have like a heart attack in your lungs,
06:55 which is so scary.
06:56 And she was like hours away from death
06:57 and we really didn't know.
06:58 She's completely fine now, which is amazing.
07:00 - Was that before you started?
07:01 - This is in 2016 and I just signed my record deal
07:04 and we were still just friends,
07:05 but he'd just broken up with his girlfriend
07:08 and I'd broken up with my boyfriend a while back
07:10 and he just like ran to the hospital.
07:12 Like he ran and I was like, holy, like it hit me.
07:15 I was like, this is my person.
07:16 Like I've always loved him so much.
07:18 But that moment he was just there for me.
07:21 But then after that, there was lots of like back and forth,
07:24 like, you know, you went out with someone else.
07:25 Like I wish it was me.
07:27 Like there was like a lot of like,
07:28 we kind of both went through our like
07:29 different douchebag phases at different times, you know?
07:31 And then I feel like all of the touring,
07:34 all of like, there was a lot of me being like,
07:35 I'm going on tour, like I can't do this to you.
07:37 And it was kind of a lot of back and forth.
07:38 And I think I have written songs about other people.
07:41 They're not all just about him.
07:42 I think people should like caveat that.
07:44 But I use a lot of kind of emotional,
07:46 like sausage mincemeat in songs.
07:47 Like it's not always about one person.
07:49 Like "Castles" isn't about one person.
07:51 Lots of that you is, but it's just,
07:54 it's been such a journey to get to the point
07:55 where we're both happy and grounded
07:57 and like each other's biggest champions, you know?
08:00 And he's a musician and a singer songwriter
08:02 and we do the same thing.
08:03 And now it's a positive, you know?
08:05 We're past that competition.
08:06 We're into the kind of really like champion each other.
08:10 - So it's like, you kind of needed that time apart
08:13 in order to, I guess, grow up.
08:14 - A hundred percent.
08:15 I don't think either of us would take it back.
08:17 - Yeah.
08:18 - Yeah. I think it really made us into the people.
08:19 And where we like respect,
08:20 we've always respected each other massively as people,
08:22 but I think respecting the relationship
08:23 and respecting the weight of that
08:25 and realising that there's a lot of people in the world,
08:27 but none of them really compare to someone that knows you,
08:30 like really knows you, you know?
08:32 - It's so interesting listening to the album
08:34 from start to finish in its proper order.
08:37 'Cause I think it takes you on that real journey
08:39 in terms of it really guides you through
08:42 like sort of like the five stages of grief,
08:44 but the five stages of heartbreak.
08:45 You have that kind of initial sense of liberation
08:48 and thinking I'm free from this terrible relationship.
08:51 And then you have those moments where you think,
08:53 oh, actually I kind of miss them.
08:55 And oh, I wonder if they're with someone new
08:57 and that doesn't make me feel very comfortable.
08:58 And then you kind of go back and you're like,
09:00 no, I'm a single independent woman.
09:01 I'm free. I can be alone.
09:02 And then you're like, oh no, but I'm a bit tired
09:04 and I'm a bit vulnerable and I miss them.
09:05 And it's very much that kind of up and down cycle.
09:08 And the songs really, really reflect that.
09:10 Was that-
09:11 - I love that you can hear that.
09:12 - I get that.
09:13 - Yeah, there's definitely that in there for sure.
09:14 - You can really hear that.
09:15 I was gonna ask, is that like an intentional thing?
09:17 And do you think that we do go through those
09:20 sort of very rigid stages in heartbreak?
09:22 - Massively.
09:23 Like you're right, it's like grief.
09:24 There's nothing linear about it.
09:26 Like you can take three steps forward
09:27 and then be like five steps back and then be like massive.
09:29 You know, it's just that continual,
09:31 like that's why I was really, really obsessed
09:33 with doing the inner work and the growth
09:34 that I don't think I had had the time to do.
09:37 Like, you know, it's not success and fame
09:39 are just so much easier than like actually working
09:42 on yourself and putting in the time and effort like that.
09:44 It's scary.
09:45 Like it's really scary.
09:46 - No one's gonna tell you that you need to sit down
09:48 and work on yourself if you're kind of like,
09:50 you know, booking shows.
09:51 - No, they'll be just like, well done you,
09:52 just keep running from it.
09:53 Like keep running on the adrenaline.
09:54 It's like, okay.
09:55 (laughing)
09:57 - Tell me a little bit more about how having therapy
10:00 kind of informed your songwriting process.
10:02 'Cause you said the first album was sort of like,
10:05 you know, stuff that you just needed to get out
10:07 and now you kind of have that greater level of,
10:09 I guess, self-awareness, is that it?
10:11 - Yeah, for many years people were like,
10:12 you know, songwriting is like therapy.
10:13 Like it's like therapy, but it isn't therapy.
10:16 I think that's a really clear distinction.
10:17 It's like, it's really good to do both.
10:19 And to sort of unpack that,
10:21 someone said it was like, you know,
10:23 your thoughts are kind of like stars
10:24 and like therapy is like seeing constellations
10:26 and just seeing the way it connects.
10:28 And I think I'd, especially when it comes to music,
10:31 there's so many emotional bonds and ties
10:33 that makes anyone want to do this as a career.
10:35 You know, like it's quite an insane thing
10:38 to actually want to do.
10:39 Like think of your biggest secrets
10:41 and share them with people, you know,
10:44 with major chords underneath them.
10:45 It's just a bit wild,
10:47 but I think there is that craving for connection
10:49 and sort of like looking into why you do that
10:52 and making sure it's coming from a really grounded place.
10:54 You're not just doing it for the validation
10:55 that you can't give yourself
10:56 because that's where danger lies.
10:58 So I was really, really intent on finding out
11:01 how I can, you know, build that bedrock of self-esteem
11:03 so that this music can be a joy on top.
11:05 It's not like, you know,
11:07 it won't break me if it disappeared tomorrow.
11:09 Like I will always have my piano
11:10 and I will always just sit and play it
11:12 until I'm, you know, 80 years old.
11:15 Things going well or not going well,
11:16 that can't be how you see yourself, you know?
11:18 - Yeah, and I want to ask you a bit
11:20 about your songwriting process more specifically,
11:23 'cause I know that you wrote the song "Happier Alone"
11:25 after you realised that you were spending time
11:27 with someone who you thought was great,
11:29 but you came away from those exchanges
11:31 feeling really kind of drained
11:32 and sort of miserable.
11:34 And I want to ask you a bit about how a thought like that
11:39 turns into a, you know, this could be a song
11:42 and how, what that is like
11:43 and how you kind of recognise when a thought
11:45 is just sort of a passing transitory thing
11:48 or when you realise, no, there's something in this
11:50 that I want to kind of explore further through my music.
11:53 - Such a good question.
11:54 I really love that question
11:55 'cause I think especially "Happier Alone", yeah,
11:57 is not written about my husband in the slightest,
11:59 but it's definitely a song that,
12:02 it's just when you're spending time with someone,
12:04 it was a friend of a friend
12:06 and it wasn't like you didn't choose that person
12:08 into your life, but suddenly they're really like
12:09 having a negative impact on you
12:10 and you can't really put your finger on why
12:11 or like really belittling you
12:13 or making you feel really bad about yourself
12:14 every time you are in this group that you normally love.
12:17 And suddenly I was just like,
12:19 it was just such a lightning bolt moment
12:21 where I was like, oh my God, it's definitely them.
12:23 Like, they're not a bad person,
12:24 but they're making me feel really bad.
12:26 And I would actually feel better
12:27 if I just didn't go and see this person,
12:29 you know, at events and stuff.
12:32 And yeah, I was in LA and it was just,
12:34 it was such a forbidden subject for me to sing about,
12:36 honestly, at the time
12:37 because it was someone close to my husband's family.
12:40 And I just, I really didn't want them to know that.
12:44 I think part of the forbidden nature of not,
12:46 songwriting is not being able to tell people things
12:48 and telling them via songs.
12:49 That's what I think.
12:50 Or not being able to admit stuff to yourself
12:52 and telling yourself via songs.
12:53 - Yeah, I'd say it's the same with writing fiction
12:56 as well. - Yeah.
12:57 - 'Cause I'm finding that with,
12:59 I interview a lot of authors as well.
13:00 - Ah, amazing. - And kind of talk about how,
13:03 you know, there are certain things
13:04 that we will write in an article or a journalism piece,
13:07 and then there are certain things that you want to express
13:10 that you can't that way for certain reasons.
13:13 So it's easier to fictionalize it,
13:15 narrativize it and put it into creative work.
13:18 Does it feel cathartic then for you
13:21 when you put those things into songs?
13:22 - I think so, yeah.
13:23 Like, there's obviously pressure,
13:25 like you want it to be successful,
13:26 but it's only when you really let go of that
13:28 that you actually get the freedom to enjoy it
13:30 and for it to be cathartic.
13:32 I think there is an element of it.
13:33 I think I want to get back to that fully cathartic feeling,
13:36 'cause like the more success or something you get,
13:38 the more pressure there is to match it.
13:39 And I feel like that kind of pressure
13:41 is the opposite of that creativity.
13:43 So yeah, I think this album in some ways was a joy to make,
13:47 and in other ways it was like really hard to make.
13:49 Like, I think I really, really struggled
13:51 with quite a lot of it.
13:52 And like, you know, my label was kind of non-existent
13:55 during that, but basically they shut down
13:56 without telling us.
13:57 So they were kind of like, "You're on your own, kid."
13:58 And I'm like, "Great!"
14:00 I'm like, "To make a second album on your own."
14:01 But that's the thing, like,
14:02 we built a studio in the garden shed,
14:03 like, to do the first half in COVID.
14:05 We went to spend three months in LA
14:08 doing like some of the best writing of my life.
14:10 And I think it was like,
14:11 sometimes having to pick yourself up out of the dirt
14:13 is like, is the best feeling.
14:14 'Cause it's like, you have that ownership
14:16 and that grit and determination
14:17 to just kind of build yourself back up,
14:19 just like I always sing about, like in "Castles."
14:21 It's like one of my recurring themes.
14:22 It's like rising like a phoenix.
14:25 - And you've said that,
14:26 you know, and hearing you talking about the pressure
14:29 of writing a second album is reminding me of this anyway,
14:32 but having recently watched Lewis Capaldi's documentary,
14:35 which is sort of about the pressure
14:36 of making his second album.
14:38 And I know that you've said that you have felt
14:40 kind of parallels between your career and his own.
14:43 And I can see why,
14:44 'cause it was sort of the instant success
14:46 and the instant kind of attention.
14:48 And, you know, I'm sure it doesn't feel that way to you,
14:51 but that's how it looks to an outsider.
14:54 And the pressure of that, you know,
14:55 you were so young when you started.
14:57 And I guess it's very easy to get kind of caught up
15:00 in the attention and the fame and the success
15:03 and people telling you you're brilliant.
15:04 And like you said, not taking the time to step away
15:07 and realize, you know,
15:08 I need to work on various things in myself
15:10 and prioritize my health and stuff.
15:12 What was it for you that resonated with Lewis Capaldi?
15:17 And how did you find that sudden,
15:20 the sudden aspect of it all?
15:22 'Cause it's a lot to take.
15:23 - It really is, yeah.
15:24 I love Lewis.
15:25 I think he's amazing.
15:26 And like, we kind of grew up in like similar,
15:28 well not grew up,
15:29 but like in this sort of like independent,
15:32 like label scene, like we made our same,
15:34 I made demos and we made it in the same,
15:36 like tiny little broom closet at this,
15:38 at the independent label that I was signed to.
15:41 Like with the worst mic you've ever seen in your life,
15:43 which is actually the mic I recorded "Lost Without You" on.
15:44 And I remember just thinking like,
15:46 and we supported, I supported him in 2017,
15:48 like some of the really, really early days.
15:50 And you just, there was some voices that just like,
15:52 your whole spine just gets chilled.
15:53 And you're like, that is stunning.
15:55 Like, I'm just obsessed with him,
15:56 like as a songwriter and a person,
15:57 I think he's phenomenal and so, so kind.
15:59 But I think the level of pressure,
16:01 like watching the documentary,
16:02 it just made me feel so much better.
16:03 'Cause I think when you're going through it,
16:05 you have no idea that anyone else
16:07 is feeling the same as you.
16:08 But then you realize that making a second album
16:10 is notoriously like,
16:11 one of the hardest things you will ever do.
16:14 I don't think anything will ever be that hard again.
16:16 And watching like, you know,
16:17 the sacrifices that he's been through,
16:19 like, you know, and his mental health,
16:20 it's just like, it really,
16:22 it really hits home that you're like,
16:24 oh, it could have broken me.
16:26 Like it really could,
16:27 this job isn't known to be like,
16:29 the kindest on your mental health.
16:31 And it's like, oh, like,
16:33 you do have to fight for it
16:34 and find people who will fight for your sanity
16:37 while you're doing it, to, you know, be on your side.
16:39 But yeah, it just made me really emotional to watch it
16:41 because I was like,
16:42 obviously like saying, I see similarities,
16:44 like he's like incredible,
16:45 but I don't see similarities more than just like,
16:48 just to be a very sort of sensitive,
16:50 very sort of like person
16:52 under a huge amount of pressure.
16:54 And I think it's the same.
16:54 And like you're saying, like writing a novel, right?
16:56 Any kind of art,
16:58 when you kind of get people who are incentivized
17:00 to sell more of you,
17:02 they want more of you.
17:03 And it's like, there's only so much to give
17:05 before you don't have anything left.
17:06 - Well, that's what I find so interesting
17:08 about all of the artists who I interview
17:10 is that, you know,
17:11 they start this kind of creative pursuit,
17:13 which just comes from a part of them,
17:15 which is often the sensitive part
17:18 and the vulnerable part.
17:19 And then suddenly that part is being commodified
17:23 and other people are controlling it
17:25 and manipulating it
17:26 and trying to turn it into something
17:28 that maybe you're not comfortable with
17:30 and pushing you into places
17:32 that are far out of your comfort zone.
17:34 And then it becomes something very different.
17:36 So how do you navigate that?
17:38 How did you manage to kind of protect yourself?
17:41 Do you think, I mean,
17:42 it sounds like COVID kind of forced you
17:44 into that a little bit.
17:45 - Yeah, a little bit.
17:47 It was a blessing.
17:48 I was choosing to see it as a massive blessing
17:50 'cause I was like,
17:51 finally I'm gonna have the time to really, really hear
17:53 what my heart wants to make
17:55 instead of what other people think I should make.
17:57 And I think there's still a bit
17:58 of what other people thought I should sound like
18:00 on this album.
18:01 And it's still kind of like, it is what it is.
18:03 But you have to trust people
18:04 when there's no one else giving you that feedback.
18:06 And to me, the fans,
18:07 their feedback is the only thing
18:09 that I actually care about.
18:11 'Cause playing songs at open mic nights,
18:12 that biofeedback of feeling a room,
18:14 feeling an audience,
18:15 that's how I started.
18:17 And then to sort of try and make an album
18:19 with not playing any of the songs live
18:20 was really, really scary.
18:21 So I started doing these weekly online live shows
18:23 on Instagram and playing the new songs
18:26 and seeing what the fans thought.
18:27 But at the end of the day,
18:28 there isn't any sort of,
18:31 I needed the support of a label
18:34 and I basically just didn't have one.
18:35 But the fans turned up for me and they always do.
18:37 And I love them for that.
18:38 And that's why I will keep making music
18:39 for the foreseeable.
18:41 But without that, it's hard to do on your own, I think.
18:44 - Yeah.
18:45 And I think it's interesting
18:46 'cause I know you've said of starting this album,
18:49 you said there's a weird feeling
18:51 where you feel you've been so rewarded
18:53 for your pain and heartbreak.
18:55 You start to think,
18:56 do I have to live like this forever?
18:57 - Yeah.
18:59 - And I think it's interesting because,
19:01 you kind of shot to success
19:03 because of these beautiful, sad ballads
19:07 that you were writing.
19:08 - Yeah.
19:08 - And it's like your people are profiting from,
19:10 and you are profiting from your own pain,
19:13 but that is obviously not sustainable.
19:16 And a really difficult thing to do.
19:18 How do you reckon with that?
19:20 And I know that,
19:21 even though the songs at the start of the album,
19:24 this time around, lyrically,
19:25 they're about painful subjects,
19:27 musically, they're very uplifting.
19:29 Is that how you kind of strike the right balance there?
19:31 Or how do you navigate that?
19:33 - I think I'm a ballad girl at heart.
19:35 That's just who I am.
19:36 Sitting down at the piano is just like,
19:37 and just sort of shutting my eyes,
19:38 that's how I write.
19:40 And I think there was a lot of pressure to be like,
19:42 let's make something more upbeat
19:43 and a bit more current.
19:45 And it's just like, I don't know.
19:46 I tried to pretzel myself into a different kind of artist
19:50 to make the powers that be happy.
19:52 And it didn't make anyone happy.
19:54 It didn't make me happy.
19:55 It didn't make them happy.
19:56 And there are still a few songs on this album
19:58 that are 100% written by me.
20:00 And I love them so much.
20:01 There's almost like a sister song to "Lost Without You"
20:03 called "Facing the Crowd."
20:04 And I feel like that already,
20:06 you can just see on Spotify
20:07 that people are really only resonating
20:08 with the songs that I really, really found
20:13 enjoyable to make.
20:14 Not just like cathartic, but like, yeah.
20:17 When someone tells you what to be,
20:18 it's like, that's never a good thing.
20:20 You know, you've got to kind of listen to your gut
20:21 as an artist and kind of champion that.
20:23 And I think I've learned so much making the second record
20:26 that I would take on to the third,
20:28 but also so much that I would leave behind.
20:30 - Yeah, it's that kind of classic star is born story,
20:34 isn't it?
20:35 I'm just like picturing Lady Gaga being like,
20:36 kind of put into all of these weird costumes
20:38 and being told to do all of these weird songs.
20:40 Do you think it would have been,
20:42 if you had just said yes to everything that came your way,
20:44 it would have been easy to kind of slip
20:45 into that kind of part?
20:47 - A hundred percent.
20:47 And there's so many things,
20:48 like it just gives me so much more respect
20:50 for other female artists.
20:51 'Cause I'm like, I now know that to get
20:53 to whatever level of like authenticity
20:56 that you have to fight so hard to hold onto that,
20:59 like in a really loving way,
21:00 but you have to not, like your boundaries have to be strong
21:03 because people will push them and be like,
21:04 what if you were just like that other person?
21:06 And it's like, that's not what got you there.
21:08 What got you there was being unique, you know?
21:11 And, you know, whenever I look at like Lonnie Del Rey
21:13 or like Florence or, you know, Taylor Swift,
21:15 like these incredible, like just female titans of pop,
21:18 but they are just indomitably like themselves,
21:21 lyrically, like musically,
21:22 like no one has had a say in that but them.
21:24 - Yeah. - No one.
21:25 - It's not easy to get there either.
21:27 And, you know, I've interviewed
21:28 quite a lot of female musicians and there's a lot of,
21:31 you know, it's hard being a woman in any industry,
21:33 but I think it's particularly hard being a woman in music.
21:36 What do you think are some of the kind of biggest issues
21:39 facing women in music now?
21:40 Is it, 'cause there's so many things going on.
21:42 Is it having control over your music and where it goes?
21:46 Is it having control over your image?
21:48 What kind of things are there that are going on?
21:51 - It's interesting, like I've never,
21:53 I mean, you're completely right,
21:54 it's just hard to be a woman in any industry.
21:55 It's like, you do have things against you,
21:57 but I think my mom always championed that.
21:58 My dad was like writing your own songs.
22:00 That's the only power you have.
22:02 - Yeah. - And if you can't
22:03 write the songs, then, you know,
22:04 if I was waiting for someone to write me a hit,
22:05 like I would still be waiting, like I would wait forever.
22:08 And I'm so, so like grateful
22:10 that they championed me for that,
22:11 'cause I used to be like, oh, like,
22:12 wouldn't it be great if someone could just write
22:13 my songs for me or like play my guitar for me?
22:17 And they were like, this is, you know,
22:18 you being able to actually play and write
22:20 is gonna be the thing that saves you.
22:21 I'm like, okay. - Yeah.
22:23 And also it's the thing that your fans connect with,
22:24 I guess, because then they know
22:26 that what you're singing about is personal to you
22:28 and it becomes personal to them.
22:29 - 100%, I don't think people realise,
22:30 like the artists who write 100% themselves
22:33 and the ones who have like 10 people
22:34 in a room written for them,
22:35 I don't think people really realise how different that is.
22:37 - Yeah, I understand the process.
22:38 - They just hear like song after song after song
22:39 and they're like, I like that song,
22:40 that's all you need to know.
22:41 But I think behind the scenes, like that is the only power.
22:44 And I think then you get to decide things
22:46 like your image and your, you know, brands
22:48 and that kind of authentic thing.
22:49 But there is a kind of like a levelling of playing field,
22:52 like don't wanna be the person that's like TikTok,
22:54 but it's true, it's like, I guess it gives people
22:56 like a sort of more grounded, like view of what's possible
23:00 because they're not the gatekeepers anymore.
23:02 They don't decide what people find
23:04 and what people don't find.
23:05 There's just a lot more people doing it.
23:06 So it's trying to stand out and be consistent
23:08 and authentic is in some way harder than it was,
23:11 but it's also more possible.
23:13 - Yeah, and I mean, listening to the album last night,
23:17 and I said this before we started recording,
23:19 it did make me cry, which probably gives you an insight
23:21 into my brain and also where I'm at in my menstrual cycle.
23:25 But I did cry, particularly to one of the songs.
23:30 I'm fine, I promise I'm fine.
23:33 The song that I wanted to ask you about
23:35 was "Last Day That You Loved Me"
23:36 'cause I thought that was such a strong image
23:39 where you're kind of contemplating with an ex-partner,
23:43 when was it the moment that you decided
23:45 that you didn't love me anymore?
23:46 And I think that's a really interesting thing
23:49 to think about.
23:50 What was it that kind of made you wanna write about that?
23:53 And what was it like to write that song
23:55 and put those thoughts into writing?
23:58 - I mean, thank you for choosing that song
23:59 'cause I feel like that song is probably the,
24:01 'cause it's more towards the end of the album.
24:03 Other songs get a lot more sort of like love and focus.
24:05 And I do, I think there are songs in the album
24:07 that will kind of like jump out at different stages.
24:10 And that one for me was one
24:12 that I really, really enjoyed writing
24:13 just 'cause it came from a concept mixed with a true idea.
24:17 And it was actually a friend and she was,
24:19 I don't even know if I've ever said this before.
24:22 Well, she was going through a divorce
24:23 and basically she was like 10 years of a relationship
24:27 and then just one day he just leaves.
24:28 I could just feel the palpable heartbreak of that.
24:31 And I remember a relationship for myself being like,
24:33 and she said, "I don't know,
24:34 I literally don't know the moment when he,
24:36 like the last day he loved me."
24:37 And I was like, "Holy shit."
24:39 Like there is a moment.
24:41 You can't put your finger in it.
24:42 They might not even be able to put their finger on it,
24:44 but you can drive yourself crazy
24:46 just trying to work out what that moment was.
24:48 Like it will give you some peace
24:49 or some clarity or closure.
24:50 It won't, but yeah, it's things our minds do
24:53 after relationships end to try and make it feel more like,
24:56 you know, a plaster, like a bow,
24:58 like just something to stop, you know,
25:00 put a full stop in it.
25:01 - Yeah, I think nothing makes your brain
25:04 more unhinged than a breakup.
25:06 It goes to the darkest places.
25:09 And like you said,
25:09 it's not gonna give you any clarity
25:11 or any kind of catharsis in any way.
25:13 It's just, but it's just,
25:14 you need to feel like you need to know
25:16 what was that moment?
25:17 Was it something I said?
25:18 Was it something I wore?
25:19 Was it, it could be anything.
25:21 - And the truth is, we're like, you'll never know.
25:22 And like, if that person was able to give you closure,
25:24 then you'd probably still be with them, you know?
25:26 So it's like, they're never gonna give you that.
25:27 But I think it was just a really like,
25:29 I just really enjoyed going on that journey
25:31 of like my past relationships being like,
25:34 when was that day?
25:34 Like, was it this moment?
25:35 Was it that moment?
25:36 And it was like, you're never gonna know.
25:38 But these are, you're either growing together
25:40 or you're growing apart.
25:41 But there is these defining moments
25:43 in all of our relationships where we're like,
25:44 oh, okay, something did change, yeah.
25:46 - Before we move on to the loves of your life,
25:48 I wanna ask you just generally, you know,
25:52 life is pretty tough.
25:53 But we love sad music.
25:56 We love listening to songs that, as I said,
25:59 make us cry and, you know,
26:01 really kind of touch us emotionally.
26:02 What do you think is the power of sad music,
26:06 for lack of a better descriptor?
26:07 But why do you think we are still so drawn
26:09 to ballads and that kind of genre?
26:12 - That's such a good question.
26:13 Again, I like these questions.
26:15 I think basically, I hadn't realized this,
26:18 but I was like, I was in the dentist,
26:19 that's such a weird one.
26:20 And I was having like a really, really painful,
26:22 like I'm so scared of needles.
26:24 Oh my God.
26:25 And basically like, I felt the pain of needles.
26:27 I was like, this is the worst thing ever.
26:28 And I basically just started like singing,
26:30 like a trumpet noise.
26:31 I was like, ah, like this noise came out.
26:33 And I was like, I just uncontrollably started singing.
26:35 Like my initial reaction.
26:37 And my mom told me this story
26:38 when she was giving birth to me.
26:39 I like, it was like the worst labor ever.
26:41 I was like 36 hours and we almost both died.
26:43 And she was like, she just sang her way through it.
26:46 And she's not a singer or anything.
26:47 She just started singing.
26:48 And she was like, sometimes things are-
26:50 - What was she singing?
26:51 - I know, I think there's a song her and my dad used to sing,
26:53 like folk songs.
26:54 And she just started singing them.
26:55 They started singing them to each other.
26:56 - That's amazing.
26:57 - And my dad's like a guitarist and sings and stuff
26:59 and he sings, but she doesn't.
27:00 So it was strange that that's where she went.
27:02 And she said, "Freyja, there were just some things in life
27:03 that are so painful.
27:04 There was nothing, you can't help but sing."
27:07 And I think it is like, it's more than a coping mechanism.
27:09 It's kind of like the closest thing you can have to medicine
27:12 when you are like in emotional agony.
27:15 You know, there's nowhere else to go.
27:17 I think, you know, singing, like dancing, writing,
27:20 like these things save us.
27:22 And I think they saved our ancestors.
27:23 And they're still like so deeply within us
27:26 that the idea of like coming together
27:27 and singing about our pain instead of suffering in silence
27:30 is still like one of the most beautiful things
27:32 I can imagine.
27:33 And I used to just be like, "Oh, it's just pop music.
27:35 It's just songs."
27:36 Like it's, you know, I love, it's not just that.
27:38 A song is a really powerful thing.
27:40 But I think some of the messages that I get,
27:43 especially about "Lost Without You,"
27:44 like, you know, people have played that song at,
27:47 you know, their children's funerals and like their weddings.
27:49 And there's like these moments that I cannot even comprehend
27:54 and I'm like, sometimes you just have to take a second
27:57 and like really take that in and just feel that,
28:00 that gratitude for the fact that I've been able
28:02 to make something that has been part of real people's lives
28:05 and like that's had an impact.
28:07 And I've managed to connect with people
28:08 that I will probably never even meet, you know?
28:11 Yeah, it's a really strange but sublime thing.
28:16 (upbeat music)
28:18 - Okay, let's move on to your love.
28:25 So the first one that you've given us
28:27 is playing piano and songwriting,
28:30 but I'm pleased you did because I want to hear a bit more
28:33 about how you first fell in love with music.
28:36 And you know, you said you were nine
28:37 when you started playing songs.
28:39 So tell us a bit more about that and, you know,
28:42 how you knew this was kind of what you were meant to do.
28:45 - Well, like my family are actors
28:47 and my dad like loves music more than anything.
28:49 He like plays guitar and sits around the kitchen table
28:51 talking about storytelling and songwriting.
28:53 It's his like his biggest passion in life.
28:55 My mom is also an actor and she plays Celtic harp
28:58 and she is also a writer
28:59 and she's just finished her first novel,
29:00 which is unbelievably beautiful.
29:02 I'm so proud of her.
29:03 Such a stunning book.
29:04 But basically I think it was just growing up
29:07 watching their love for, you know, music, songwriting
29:11 and specifically like, you know, big ballads
29:13 of like female big ballads was like their thing.
29:15 And for me, I was like, I was a strange child.
29:19 Like I was, you know, taller than all the other kids.
29:21 I was redhead, like I was quite big as well.
29:24 I was just bigger than the other kids, you know, quite young.
29:26 And I think for me, that made me such an outcast at school.
29:30 But at home I was so loved, you know,
29:32 and I had all my aunties and uncles and godmothers
29:34 and godfathers who are actors
29:35 and they were all such champions of me
29:37 being like, let's put on shows.
29:38 Let's like, let's write songs, let's do stuff together.
29:40 And then I go to school and I just be completely
29:42 like ostracized and like ridiculed.
29:44 And it was just, it was just these two
29:45 completely different worlds for me.
29:47 So I just kind of shut down when I went into my shell
29:49 and I became kind of like a zombie version
29:51 of myself at school.
29:53 And then there was one day where I got piano lessons
29:55 when I was like seven.
29:56 I think there was some like complimentary,
29:58 like you could get free piano lessons
30:00 as like a seven-year-old.
30:01 And I was like, okay, I can do this.
30:02 And my mom had sort of, I'd seen her play.
30:04 So I went to do it and I had a really, really sweet
30:07 piano teacher, the first one.
30:08 She had really, really long fingernails.
30:09 She could like barely play, she called Belle.
30:10 She was really sweet.
30:11 She was like, "I'm gonna show you how to play the chords."
30:12 And I was like, "Okay, I can learn like this."
30:15 And then she was like, "Well, we're gonna try
30:16 and like learn to read music."
30:18 And I was like, I really struggled
30:19 'cause I was really dyslexic at school.
30:21 So I was really struggling with reading and writing
30:23 to begin with, like speaking, like talking, like love that.
30:26 I could do that for days, but actually holding a pen,
30:28 I was like really, really struggling with that.
30:30 So she was like, "Okay, we'll just teach you some chords
30:32 and see what you can do with that."
30:33 And I went home that night and I wrote a song
30:35 about people like being mean to me at school
30:37 and like leaving me out.
30:39 And that was the first time where I was like,
30:40 I felt like I'd turned something really inescapable
30:44 and painful into something like good and like beautiful.
30:48 I was like, oh my God,
30:49 I turned something painful into something.
30:50 And it was like this moment,
30:51 this kind of like Rumpelstiltskin like moment.
30:54 No, not him.
30:55 You know, the girl who can tell stuff and pay into gold.
30:57 - Yes. - Yeah.
30:58 It was like, I turned this big pile of shit
30:59 into something good.
31:00 And I was like, oh my God, I wanna do that again.
31:02 That was a real life-changing moment for me.
31:04 And also it was the first time
31:05 I'd ever felt good at anything.
31:06 My mom was determined to find the thing that I loved.
31:08 Like it was her mission in life.
31:09 Like we went to athletic lessons.
31:10 I couldn't throw anything shit.
31:12 We went to trampoline lessons.
31:13 I like fell off the trampoline.
31:14 She was like, we're not gonna stop
31:16 until we find the thing you love.
31:17 Like you're gonna, you know,
31:18 because they're such passionate, incredible people.
31:20 And they were like, you're gonna find that thing.
31:22 And like, I thought it was like art for a bit.
31:23 I'm like, it's debatable.
31:25 And this was the moment where I was like,
31:26 I really loved this.
31:27 And she's like, right, okay, let's get,
31:29 you know, she said like,
31:30 I'll never stop paying for the music lessons.
31:31 Like they didn't have a lot of money growing up.
31:33 Like we had a really old piano
31:35 and like the keys would literally fall off it.
31:36 And the piano teacher was like,
31:38 you really need to get her a better piano.
31:39 And they were like,
31:40 and it was actually my auntie went through a divorce,
31:42 bless her, but she didn't want the piano
31:44 that her ex-husband had given her.
31:45 And she gave it to me.
31:46 And that's the only reason that I wrote any of these songs.
31:49 Yeah, and it's still the same piano
31:50 sat in their front room at the moment.
31:52 And it means so much to me, that piano,
31:54 'cause it did, it changed my life.
31:55 - And when did you kind of know that you had a good voice?
31:58 Because I feel like, you know, young girls always,
32:00 you know, oh, I wanna be a pop star.
32:02 But not everyone has a voice like yours.
32:04 How did you, was there a moment
32:06 when you were kind of singing for someone in your family
32:08 and they were like, oh my gosh.
32:10 - There were a couple of moments.
32:11 It was around the time where I was about sort of like eight
32:14 or like seven or eight.
32:14 And I think, yeah, I was watching "Love Actually"
32:17 and you know the moment with the little girl
32:18 where she sings like,
32:19 like "I Don't Wanna Look For Christmas" at the end.
32:21 I remember being like, whoa, like she's so cool.
32:23 So grown up, she's like 12 or something.
32:25 And I was like, I wonder if I could do that.
32:26 And I went to my bedroom
32:27 and I was like singing into my hand.
32:28 I was like, ♪ I don't wanna look for Christmas ♪
32:30 And I was like, and I called like my best friend
32:31 at the time, like on the landline.
32:32 I was like, I think I can sing.
32:34 And she was like, okay, cool.
32:35 And then the next day in school, she was like,
32:36 everyone I think can sing.
32:38 And they were like, yeah, whatever.
32:39 But it kind of like, there was a moment where this girl,
32:41 like the next school I went to,
32:42 it was like, like I was so like left out.
32:45 And she was like, everyone can sing.
32:47 And like, they all like gathered around me
32:48 and I sang something.
32:49 They were like, whoa.
32:50 It was like the first time I'd been treated
32:51 like a human being at school.
32:52 And I was like, yes, so cool.
32:54 Then there'd be these nights,
32:55 these sort of talent show nights,
32:57 like once or twice a year.
32:58 And it was like the whole night.
32:59 It was the first time I felt like I was like my true self
33:01 outside of my home.
33:03 And yeah, there was just a moment,
33:04 this open mic night when I was like 11
33:06 and I played these two songs I'd written
33:07 and it just went crazy.
33:08 And I was like, I found it.
33:10 I found the thing I love.
33:11 And then when I find something like that,
33:13 I'm pretty like persistent.
33:14 And like, I just became obsessed with it.
33:16 It was like every lunchtime after school,
33:18 every day I'd just be in the piano room,
33:19 just like writing, you know.
33:21 I made friends with the janitor.
33:22 Like she'd like give me the key and stuff.
33:24 And when no one else would let me in there,
33:26 I'd like sneak in there and be just like.
33:28 It was quite a rebellious act for me, which I loved.
33:30 - And at what point did you decide
33:32 this is more than a hobby?
33:33 This is something I want to pursue.
33:35 - I knew when I was 11, I was like,
33:37 this is now the thing that I'm going to never stop doing.
33:40 And it was weird.
33:41 I was like, I'll probably have other loves in my life,
33:44 but I feel like this could be the longest.
33:45 I was like, it hit me.
33:47 - And how did you go into getting signed
33:50 and getting your first kind of record deal?
33:52 - That was really hard.
33:54 Well, my parents basically like,
33:56 we didn't know anyone in the music industry.
33:58 I think people think because you're actors,
34:00 you don't know anyone.
34:01 Literally like my dad, you know,
34:02 writes and plays and stuff.
34:03 It doesn't mean you know anyone.
34:05 But so basically my mom was like the next best thing.
34:08 You can't read music.
34:09 So maybe, you know,
34:10 the Brit school would be like the next best thing.
34:12 And I used to see like at the Brit Awards,
34:14 they'd all be in the front row.
34:14 And I knew Adele went there and Amy Winehouse.
34:16 And I loved them.
34:17 I was like, I would love to go there for sixth form.
34:19 I missed the first application process.
34:21 So it was the second time, the 16 to 18 slot.
34:24 And we were really, really lucky.
34:26 My Nana gave me some money to be able to go
34:29 and move down there.
34:30 And we basically like found this like tiny little flat
34:32 in the middle of Croydon.
34:33 There's like no furniture on the floor.
34:34 We had a mattress on the floor for like two years,
34:36 basically.
34:38 We didn't have furniture.
34:39 Yeah, it was crazy.
34:40 There's no wifi, but it basically,
34:42 I had a mirror, I had a mattress,
34:43 and I had an acoustic guitar.
34:46 And I'd come back every day from Brit school
34:47 and I'd put the mattress up and I'd like,
34:49 I'd dance and I'd play and I'd sing.
34:51 And that was what I did for two years.
34:53 And that's when I came out of the Brit school.
34:54 And I was like, I thought I was gonna get signed.
34:55 Didn't, it was heartbroken.
34:57 And then there was a guy who I went to the Brit school with
34:59 who was interning at an indie label.
35:00 And they were like, what have you got,
35:01 new kid, like anything for us?
35:03 And he's like, well, actually my friend,
35:04 like from school is pretty good.
35:05 And so he gave them, I think it was a demo
35:08 of "Lost Without You" and that changed everything.
35:10 - And that's how it happened.
35:11 - That was three years after I left the Brit school though.
35:12 I remember for three years,
35:14 just playing open mic nights around London,
35:16 thinking like, I was like, please let something work.
35:18 Please let something work.
35:18 - 'Cause I think people assume you come out of a school
35:20 like that and like, oh, you get a record deal.
35:23 - No, no, no.
35:24 I transformed pretty drastically during that.
35:26 Like when I went to the Brit school,
35:28 I was, yeah, I was quite significantly bigger
35:30 and I lost about like half my body weight.
35:32 And I did my sort of transformation,
35:34 blow up kind of like out of the cocoon,
35:36 the butterflies will come.
35:37 And I don't think people from the Brit school
35:38 would even recognize me now to be fair.
35:40 Don't think they would.
35:41 - I mean, this sort of brings me onto your second love
35:44 that you gave us, which you said helped kind of
35:45 transform your life from that age,
35:47 which is intuitive eating.
35:48 Which is a phrase that I have heard of.
35:52 I don't really know what it means.
35:53 So can you tell us a bit about-
35:54 - I'm so passionate about this.
35:55 - What it is, what it means and how it helped you?
35:58 - So yeah, I've struggled with my weight my entire life,
36:01 but like not even consciously.
36:02 I think it was just like the more unhappy I was at school,
36:05 the more of a physical defense I needed.
36:07 It's not something I really like I've spoken about before,
36:09 but I knew to do what I loved,
36:11 which was to be a singer songwriter,
36:12 you need energy, you need the performance
36:15 to be able to travel the world and do what you love.
36:18 I was like, I know that I was gonna have to do
36:20 a pretty intense sort of grow up.
36:21 And when I was 16, I was pretty low in the summer.
36:25 And after I was homeschooled for a couple of years,
36:27 that's probably the biggest I've ever been.
36:28 And my mom went to the secondhand bookshop
36:30 and she got me this copy of,
36:32 it was called Paul McKenna's "I Can Make You Feel."
36:35 Which is such a shit phrase, but it's honestly one of,
36:37 this book changed my life like beyond words.
36:39 It's a really, really simple set of like
36:41 intuitive eating rules.
36:42 And I tried so many things and like diets and exercise
36:45 and nothing was working
36:46 'cause it was so much more emotional than that.
36:47 And it was so much less about restriction
36:49 and a lot more about like just self-compassion
36:52 and like kindness and allowing you to eat whatever you want,
36:54 but just really be present as you eat it
36:56 instead of using food as a kind of an escape.
37:00 Like so many people do it.
37:02 It's like, I still can do it.
37:03 It's like, it's just always, you know,
37:05 like being a drug addict,
37:06 like there's always that road in you
37:08 and you have to actively on a daily basis,
37:11 like fight it, you know?
37:13 And I started a journal when I was 16
37:15 and I've written a journal every single night
37:17 for now 13 years, which is,
37:19 I'd say the biggest defining thing of my life
37:23 because it gives you that accountability
37:24 to just be like, I'm just doing this day in front of me
37:26 no matter what goal you're going for.
37:28 And yeah, I basically, between that and like
37:30 dancing in front of, in the kitchen at night
37:33 at my parents' house, I basically,
37:34 I think I lost 10 stone.
37:36 Yeah, which is crazy.
37:37 I basically became a completely different person,
37:39 basically who I was before I went to school.
37:41 Like, you know, I was a little girl
37:42 with like bouncy like ringlets and like fiery energy.
37:46 And like, that was who I was.
37:47 And that kind of got knocked out of me at school.
37:49 And then I just, I came back out of that shell
37:51 and yeah, basically without that book,
37:53 I actually got to do Paul McKenna's podcast in lockdown.
37:56 I couldn't even talk to him.
37:57 I was literally like, you have no idea
37:58 how many times I've written your name
37:59 in my diary over so many years.
38:01 I've like, today I did Paul McKenna
38:02 or today I fell off the wagon or today,
38:03 like he's just an incredible man.
38:05 And I'm just so, so grateful to him for that book.
38:07 - You must've met so many famous people in your career
38:11 and I'm guessing is he the one
38:12 you were starstruck by the most?
38:14 - Yeah, 100%.
38:15 I've met some really famous people and he is just,
38:18 'cause I think it's not just starstruck.
38:19 It's like the people that have had the biggest impact
38:21 on your life. - Well, that's what it is.
38:22 Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.
38:23 I think it's, that's what makes you kind of
38:25 in awe of someone.
38:27 And how does that work when you're touring then?
38:29 Because I know that that can be really difficult
38:31 in terms of sticking to a routine
38:33 and sticking to your kind of,
38:35 the way that you like to eat.
38:36 How do you navigate that?
38:38 - I find it really helpful for when I'm touring,
38:40 especially because you're right,
38:42 like looking after your physical health and mental health
38:43 and it's like, you can spiral very easily.
38:45 Like I don't really drink when I'm working,
38:47 which is, that really, really helps
38:49 'cause it messes up your voice.
38:51 But when it comes to eating, yeah,
38:52 basically on a daily basis,
38:54 I'm just like trying to stay as conscious
38:56 and consistent as possible.
38:58 And my diary helps me do that.
39:00 But it's actually really, really great
39:01 'cause it's not like you're sort of restricted
39:03 by the kinds of food you can eat.
39:04 So you can eat whatever you want,
39:06 but just like, it's just making sure
39:08 you don't get so stressed
39:09 that you kind of start mindlessly eating
39:11 or using it to escape again.
39:12 'Cause I think that's where the danger zone lies for me.
39:15 But yeah, I still do my star,
39:18 my stickers in my diary every night
39:19 and I either get that sticker or I don't.
39:20 And it's really helped me break it down
39:23 into manageable chunks.
39:23 - Stars and stickers in the diary.
39:25 Is that part of the book?
39:26 Explain that, how does that work?
39:27 - Well, basically I buy like,
39:29 I've actually been buying these like liberties.
39:30 It's like a notebook every year.
39:32 And then like I get like colored stickers
39:34 and they count for like a different goal for the day.
39:36 So whether that's like movement
39:38 or like I've really been into getting
39:39 into like steps at the moment,
39:40 like 15,000 steps or like 10,000.
39:43 And basically just like showing up for yourself.
39:45 Like the diary is one.
39:46 And then whether I did music
39:47 and I did my hour singing,
39:49 like I do a singing training lesson.
39:52 And basically if you've,
39:54 what kind of day you've had,
39:55 as long as I've hit my stickers,
39:56 like I've had a good day, you know?
39:56 It just kind of breaks it down
39:57 and makes it much less like looking up at a mountain
39:59 and much more just like one step in front of you.
40:01 - Yeah, I love that.
40:02 'Cause it's taking something that is very, very childlike.
40:05 It's like getting your little sticker
40:07 for doing your chores. - It makes you feel good.
40:07 You're like, I got my stickers.
40:08 - Yeah.
40:09 And that sort of brings us to your final love,
40:11 which is journaling and vision boarding and life coaching.
40:14 - Yeah.
40:15 - So tell us a little bit about,
40:17 I mean, start off with vision boarding.
40:19 'Cause I think that is something
40:20 that people have an idea of in their heads.
40:24 You know, manifesting is something
40:25 that has become much bigger in the last kind of six months.
40:27 - It's become so popular.
40:28 There are so many things that I've been obsessed with
40:29 for so long that have just become really popular on TikTok.
40:32 And I'm like, wow,
40:32 I love that people are sharing these ideas.
40:34 And like it can reach a further audience
40:35 'cause I think it's so powerful.
40:37 And at the time I didn't believe in it at all.
40:38 I thought it was utter bullshit.
40:39 I was like, this is not gonna work at all.
40:41 - So when did you start kind of doing this stuff?
40:43 And yeah, explain to us, what is vision boarding?
40:46 - So there's kind of like a couple of elements to it.
40:48 Basically, my mom's friend,
40:50 she wanted to train to be a life coach
40:52 and she's an incredible woman called Kelly.
40:53 I love you, Kelly.
40:54 And basically she was looking for a guinea pig
40:56 to practice her life coaching on.
40:57 And she's like, she knew I was about 21,
40:59 I hadn't been signed
41:00 and I was actually considering giving up music.
41:01 I was like, this is really hard.
41:02 Like, I don't think anything's gonna work.
41:04 And she's like, just come in for a practice session.
41:06 We're just like, I'm learning as much as like,
41:08 we'll just give it a go.
41:10 And she basically, you know,
41:12 made me like sort of visualize and say out loud
41:15 my dream life.
41:16 And I was like, there's literally no point, Kelly.
41:18 Like, I'm not gonna get it.
41:19 Like, I've tried three years of playing.
41:20 I've written this song called "Lost Without You"
41:22 like three years ago.
41:23 No one cares.
41:23 Like, I should probably just retire.
41:25 And she's like, okay, let's start there.
41:27 But in a dream world, what would it look like?
41:30 And I was like, so I'd love to play
41:32 at this place called St. Pancras Old Church
41:34 that I saw a friend of a friend play in.
41:36 And like, I'd love to have her play on a red Nord keyboard.
41:38 And I really visualized it.
41:39 And I was like, and it could be like an album launch
41:40 or something like that.
41:41 And then I also visualized like being on the West Coast,
41:43 down the West Coast of America in a van,
41:44 like being on tour, like looking out
41:46 and like seeing like the beautiful views
41:47 of like the sea and the ocean, but like playing shows.
41:50 And I was like, it felt impossible.
41:52 And a year to the day, like I was sat in St. Pancras,
41:55 like playing a Nord at my album launch,
41:57 like a year to the day. - Wow.
42:00 - And it was insanely specific.
42:02 And I was like, there was no way that worked.
42:04 I think definitely like speaking out loud
42:06 and really visualizing it did something to me.
42:09 It sort of reset my like,
42:10 my subconscious like programming just changed.
42:13 And I suddenly became like,
42:14 there was something that was possible then, you know?
42:16 'Cause you'd been there in your head.
42:18 And even recently, I haven't like even said this,
42:20 but when it came to like being
42:21 on the Graham Norton show and stuff.
42:22 So basically at Christmas, I was like,
42:24 I haven't done Manifest in a while.
42:25 It's been a while.
42:26 And I was like, what would I really, really want?
42:28 I was like, I'd love to be on the Graham Norton show.
42:29 I really would.
42:30 Like, I've loved the show my whole life.
42:31 I went to go see the show when I was 18,
42:33 like in the audience.
42:34 I really visualized like sitting on the red sofa,
42:35 like what the sofa felt like.
42:37 I imagined him like calling me over.
42:39 Like I'd never even met Graham at that point.
42:41 And then it was like a week later,
42:42 they were like, do you want to come on his radio show?
42:44 And I was like, yeah, that sounds great.
42:45 Like they were like, you'll never get the TV show
42:47 because no one does.
42:48 And also like, it's the end of the series.
42:49 Like it's over, like it's pretty much done.
42:51 And I went and we just like,
42:53 I got up at five in the morning to warm up.
42:54 I was like, I'm going to give this my best shot.
42:56 I played these songs that I could like discover
42:58 and I gave it my best.
42:59 And we just really, really clicked.
43:00 And he was so lovely.
43:01 He was like, it was really, really lovely to meet you.
43:02 I was like, you too, Graham.
43:04 And then I think it was three days later,
43:05 like even his own producer was like, there's no chance.
43:07 This show is like 15 people should go this final slot.
43:10 Like, but maybe next series.
43:11 I was like, okay, all good.
43:12 Like that's after the album comes out, all good.
43:14 And then we got a phone call three days later
43:16 and Graham was like, you're going on.
43:17 And like, I was like, I'm not.
43:19 I was like, yeah, this is insane.
43:22 So I think there was like,
43:23 there were these beautiful moments,
43:24 these glimmers of like magic
43:26 that I'm not even sure where they've really come from.
43:27 And like, I didn't even believe it as I visualized it
43:30 and it still sort of came true.
43:31 But I just think I, there was sort of multiple realities
43:34 and I'm definitely living in the one
43:35 where like things went right.
43:36 And I'm just so grateful on a daily basis for that.
43:39 - What was it like when you went on the show?
43:41 - It was so cool.
43:42 It was like frame for frame, like exactly what I'd seen.
43:45 And I was like, like, it was literally almost like deja vu,
43:48 but like it hadn't already happened.
43:50 - Yeah.
43:51 - And also even like- - Who were you on there with?
43:52 - So we were on with like Pedro Pascal,
43:54 Dame Helen Mirren and Ariana DeVoice.
43:57 And they were so lovely to me and it was just incredible.
43:59 - That's amazing.
44:00 And so how does it work in terms of the journaling?
44:05 I know you said, you know, with the stickers and the stars,
44:07 but do you do it sort of every night before you go to bed?
44:09 - Yeah, every night before I go to bed.
44:10 - And how long do you write for?
44:12 What kind of things? - Just that one page.
44:13 I like, I find it like quite, like to only have to do a page
44:16 'cause sometimes, there are some nights where I like,
44:17 I do not have it in me and I'm like,
44:18 I really don't want to do it.
44:19 It's most nights I don't want to do it, to be fair.
44:21 But I always feel so much better
44:22 and I feel like that accountability
44:23 just makes you feel like, you know,
44:25 you turn up so many other people in your life
44:26 and it's like that one moment
44:27 you're turning up for yourself
44:28 and like to really, you know, say thank you
44:31 for the moments in the day that are really like,
44:34 like made you feel better about yourself
44:35 and for the people that you love as well.
44:37 Just finding those moments of gratitude,
44:38 but also just like keeping yourself accountable
44:40 to what you're actually doing with your life
44:41 and if you're enjoying yourself
44:43 or if people in your life are good for you or not.
44:45 - And finally, before we wrap up,
44:48 sitting here now recording this podcast,
44:51 what do you want to put into the universe?
44:53 What are you manifesting next?
44:54 The second album's out,
44:55 I know you've got a really busy summer.
44:57 What are you kind of thinking about
44:59 visually at the moment?
45:00 - I think the thing I'm finding really exciting
45:02 at the moment is just this feeling of like,
45:04 I literally feel like I'm like buzzing
45:06 with like potential of like joy and freedom
45:09 that I haven't had in such a long time.
45:11 Like, I don't know, there's kind of like,
45:13 yeah, what I'm gonna put out into the universe
45:15 is that I really want to do more songs
45:17 for film and TV.
45:18 Like we've just written this song for a film
45:19 that's coming out at the end of the month
45:20 and that's something I put on my very first ever
45:23 physical vision board.
45:24 I've never made a physical one before.
45:25 I've done loads online.
45:25 I've done Pinterest ones.
45:26 This is the first time I went to like Kodak.
45:29 I got these printed out.
45:30 I cut them out.
45:31 I got print stickers,
45:32 I was like on the floor for like three hours.
45:33 I had to be like to my husband,
45:34 I was like, I need a bigger board.
45:36 I was like, my dreams are too big.
45:37 He literally went out to the shop
45:38 and like came back with a bigger board.
45:39 And he found me this little like tiny orange tree as well.
45:41 They're really, really sour.
45:43 It was just like, it was such a beautiful moment.
45:45 And I was like, I think even admitting to myself
45:47 how much I love film music and TV, you know,
45:50 all of these moments in my life,
45:51 like Love Island, like the syncs that I've got,
45:53 it's like, for me, like film music, pop songs,
45:55 and like TV and film, like those are my three loves.
45:58 And I would love to like manifest writing more songs
46:00 for film and TV after this.
46:02 - Amazing.
46:03 Okay, it's in the universe.
46:03 It's gonna happen.
46:05 That's it for today.
46:06 Thank you so much, everyone, for listening.
46:09 You can listen to Love Lives
46:10 on all major podcast platforms.
46:12 You can also watch us on independent TV,
46:15 all social media platforms,
46:17 and all major connected devices.
46:19 I will see you soon.
46:20 Bye.
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