Forbidden Art episode 2
Mary Beard's Forbidden Art episode 2: Mary unpacks the complex subject of art and ideology, considering a range of very different works that have challenged the political and social status quo, expressing opinions and attitudes that many have wanted to silence - and even erase.
Last Art posts on HDclump.com:
https://hdclump.com/mary-beards-forbidden-art-episode-1/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-3/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-2/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-1/
https://hdclump.com/quentin-blake-the-drawing-of-my-life/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-4/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-3/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-2/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-1/
Last Art posts on HDclump.com:
https://hdclump.com/mary-beards-forbidden-art-episode-1/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-3/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-2/
https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-1/
https://hdclump.com/quentin-blake-the-drawing-of-my-life/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-4/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-3/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-2/
https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-1/
Transcript
00:06We live in hazardous times for art,
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undefined:undefinedby the statues they see
00:40in places of honour, and those
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undefined:undefinedfind offensive
01:08and feel should be forbidden.
01:14When it became a bit of a circus,
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undefined:undefinedbetween art, artists,
01:29and authorities of all sorts.
01:31Drop it.
01:35I want people to understand and to
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undefined:undefinedwhat we've wanted to hide.
01:50You've got eight or nine foot
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undefined:undefinedof our times, or of any.
02:33In the 21st century, all kinds
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undefined:undefinedcomedian Kathy Griffin went too far.
03:12Is that Donald Trump?
03:15That's Trump head?
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undefined:undefinedor opinions about Donald Trump.
03:42You could see it as a riff on the
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undefined:undefinedby the FBI on suspicion
04:01of threatening the president's
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undefined:undefinedphotographer at home in LA
04:37to discover why he thought
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undefined:undefinedpolitical".
04:54She said, "I want to do something
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undefined:undefinedof epic beheading paintings
05:09and sculptures throughout history.
05:11And so we kind of make this mask
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undefined:undefinedjust so you know.
05:24I won't give away what we're doing,
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undefined:undefinedThat's it right there. Pull it up.
05:42Drop it.
05:46When I first saw the photograph,
05:49the image that came to mind
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undefined:undefinedof Hillary Clinton.
06:06And what then is kind
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undefined:undefinedyour and Kathy's photograph
06:25just went...viral?
06:29That's part of the power
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undefined:undefinedlike a rubber mask with tomato
06:43ketchup on it, means it doesn't get
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undefined:undefinedhave the same, as you said,
07:02protection that paintings have.
07:05I mean, it angered people
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undefined:undefinedpeople were like, "This is too far,"
07:31you know, cut to you've got a
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undefined:undefinedand people are absolutely appalled
07:47by it, only to then
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Black lives matter.
:undefined
undefined:undefinedstatue wars.
08:26It's wrong to desecrate a
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undefined:undefineda blockbuster exhibition
08:48showcasing many of the
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undefined:undefinedartistic movements
09:14like Dadaism and Cubism
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undefined:undefinedand enjoy, then you actually
09:31have to show it to them first.
09:33And they even produced a kind
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undefined:undefinedart, really.
09:50And on the first page
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undefined:undefinedagainst degenerate art is going for
10:11is anything that appears
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undefined:undefinedof the German First World War
10:48trenches was something
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undefined:undefinedit's hard to say, favourite,
11:17this image of two skulls, teeth
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undefined:undefined- Muller.
11:45In the Nazis' exhibition, the work
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undefined:undefinedclaimed it a success.
12:07They boast that in Munich alone,
12:09over two million people
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undefined:undefinedis shown for what it is,
12:33as the disintegration
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undefined:undefinedand many of the other banned artists
12:55have since become some of the most
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undefined:undefinedin the 1960s performing the banned
13:23Nazi salute to challenge Germans
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undefined:undefinedaround homosexuality and Aids
13:53with a disconcerting frankness.
13:59I found this Christ in
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undefined:undefinedwhich in terms of the spread
14:15of the HIV virus,
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undefined:undefinedat homophobia.
14:33But with the Aids crisis,
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undefined:undefinedis abnormal, unnatural, a bit evil.
15:03It is a gay plague.
15:04# How can you say
15:07# I go about things the wrong way?
15:10# I am human and I need... #
15:13In his final years, Jarman took
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undefined:undefineda preview
15:32shortly before a new exhibition.
15:36I met with writer Jon Savage,
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undefined:undefined..letting you say that, Mary!
16:06I'll say it again,
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undefined:undefinedyou've got HIV, this is pretty bad."
16:21He said, "John, it's not great,
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undefined:undefinedsaying, "I am going blind."
16:36Yes.
16:37Also what I get out of both
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undefined:undefinedAids differently."
17:07And if you come over to the other
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undefined:undefinedhis victory over the tabloids.
17:33And these paintings are at,
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undefined:undefinedin his life.
17:48Yeah. Telling you all the stuff
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undefined:undefinedthey are telling a truth.
18:1230 years on, Jarman's battles
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undefined:undefinednot long after Jarman's paintings,
18:33also fingering the tabloid press,
18:36is still one many feel should never
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undefined:undefinedmany works by young British artists.
19:06Conceived and curated to draw
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undefined:undefinedon their faces,
19:21Damien Hirst's
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A picture of the
:undefinedMoors murderer, Myra Hindley,
20:01made with children's handprints
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undefined:undefinedHindley's victims said
20:18the picture was disgusting.
20:2225 years later,
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undefined:undefinedfrom the 1960s?
20:47So these are, like, hands?
20:52Yeah. Oh, that's, that's grim.
20:54That's probably quite offensive
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undefined:undefinedthem think about it again.
21:13It almost seems like they're
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedSaatchi, buy it and then it becomes
21:29a commodity to keep
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undefined:undefinedmoral dilemmas about the piece.
21:57I'd sort of been through all the
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undefined:undefinedunder polythene,
22:08accumulating this sort of dust,
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undefined:undefinedabout the project... Mm-hm.
22:26..but what point
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undefined:undefinedease of its branding - evil,
22:41don't like, lock it up.
22:43And also, I understood
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undefined:undefineddisturbed that it was in me,
23:03but there was something quite
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undefined:undefinedwas something about that image
23:28I felt was important to sort of
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undefined:undefinedfor, like, decades
23:45and decades, and millions
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undefined:undefinedand thank the sweet Lord God
24:00for this kind of horror because
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undefined:undefinedthey try to kind of come over
24:14all kind of like the beadle
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undefined:undefinedparents of the murdered children,
24:32that it should, you know, it should
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undefined:undefinedof a circus, I was almost sort of
24:51blamed for trying to find a way
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undefined:undefinedupsets you about it?"
25:16And I say, "I've lost a child."
25:19Yeah, but...
25:21This isn't a celebration
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undefined:undefinedto the event.
25:42I make images of images that have
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undefined:undefinedabout what the power of an image is
26:07and what it is for.
26:09These are old
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedChapel of the Mercers Company,
26:33there is an extraordinarily rare
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undefined:undefinedhis head has fallen back,
27:20his mouth is open.
27:23What we can pick out
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undefined:undefinedthat go far beyond
27:43what we read about in the Bible.
27:45The whole crown of thorns has gone,
27:47but that hand has gone,
27:49this arm has gone,
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undefined:undefinedbetween Protestants and Catholics.
28:15Tens of thousands of figurative
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undefined:undefinedas a form of vandalism,
28:33but actually, it was part of some
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undefined:undefinedthe image to God?
28:55Or were you actually worshipping
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undefined:undefinedartist in doing this?
29:18There's hardly been a religion
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedextreme form of prohibition
29:46is and has been in Islam.
29:51Its mosques don't feature
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undefined:undefined439
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedover the last few decades,
30:09satirical cartoons of the Prophet
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undefined:undefinedin parts of the Islamic world
30:37of representing Muhammad, especially
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undefined:undefineda specialist in Islamic history,
31:00to explore them further.
31:05So this is an image from the
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedat Muhammad. Even the camels, yeah.
31:24And this is an angel coming
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedso it's a chronicle.
31:41It tells the story of the Mongols.
31:43And the author, Rashid al-Din,
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedvery carefully, move that,
32:01we've got another image which looks
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undefined:undefinedat both ends.
32:16That's right, and I think it shows
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undefined:undefinedof Islam
32:37as being opposed to images
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undefined:undefinedrare or a bit subversive?
32:54Certainly not subversive.
32:56Because the author of this text
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undefined:undefinedNot absolutely.
33:19In general, to be very broad brush,
33:22Shi'i positions on the depiction
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undefined:undefinedhere, which tends to move away
33:40from at least showing the features
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undefined:undefinedto be prohibitive.
33:57But those are matters
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undefined:undefined502
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedreverential. Absolutely.
34:16In fact, as late as the 2000s,
34:20the legal opinions of many scholars
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinednot the image itself.
34:39I think we should also stress
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedare perhaps
34:55Eurocentric in that sense.
34:57You know, we expect to see
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedobservation that it is now
35:15a very Western point of view
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedand the value we place on looking.
35:40In a way, the merits
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedthe virtues of transparency.
35:56But not all cultures
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undefined:undefinedmade by the Baoule people.
36:18These pieces were once subject
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedand it could diminish the power
36:37of this to be impactful
36:39unless you are part of a very
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undefined:undefined540
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedand it would be worn with a raffia
37:02cloak, palm fronds as well,
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undefined:undefinedand women who would be excluded.
37:31But if you were to defy convention,
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedwe've got out here?
37:51These figures would be commissioned
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedin very real ways.
38:10So you ignore them, and then,
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undefined:undefinedwho aren't meant to gaze upon this,
38:31the more that its power,
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedas hard as we can.
38:49Now, is that a problem?
38:51Well, I mean, we're used to looking
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undefined:undefinedin which respect and understanding
39:07is actually connected
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedGus is reminding us
39:34that looking and not looking can be
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undefined:undefinedwho's making them
39:52and how they're being shown
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undefined:undefinedpublic in the sense that we own it,
40:13even if we can rarely see it,
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undefined:undefined594
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedaround the time of World War I
40:35to decorate the grand
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedstaff and visitors,
40:55the view that it offers of the other
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedbut when we asked for permission,
41:19the Foreign Office refused
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedGreece and France.
41:41Below, scantily-clad Belgium,
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undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedwith a bowl of fruit,
42:01infantilising the people
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined617
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedthese all the time
42:22and you don't realise the
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined621
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedto those people that, yeah,
42:33like, Africa's just
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined630
undefined:undefined631
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedbeen brought down a long time ago.
43:02But there's a more complicated
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined635
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedForeign Office interiors
43:26were in need of decoration, he
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined640
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedscene of Britannia the peacemaker
43:48was trickiest of all.
43:51We now tend to concentrate
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined645
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedworried about the representation
44:09of Japan as a Geisha.
44:11But happily, they were able
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined651
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedof racism himself,
44:30when the murals were attacked
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined656
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedenough without the spacious
44:54decorations of a foreign Jew at the
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined661
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedfor more than a century,
45:12and he was not Jewish.
45:15For us, there are some sobering
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined666
undefined:undefined667
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedfamily had lived for generations.
45:37And in a way, the prejudices
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined671
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedto the challenge posed by statues
46:02in public places.
46:08SHOUTING
46:14COMMENTARY: For centuries, he took
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined677
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined13 days after the killing
46:31of George Floyd by US police.
46:34The monument to Edward Colston,
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined682
undefined:undefined683
undefined:undefined684
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedand divided opinion.
47:05For a lot of people, it's a reminder
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined690
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedto do is to take our history away,
47:24whether it be good or bad.
47:25I'm not sure if, you know,
47:28vandalism is the right answer,
47:31but I believe people wanted to see
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined697
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedbut there's a better way to go
47:49about wanting people to hear
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined702
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedbecause you now see things
48:06from a different way?
48:13Aindrea Emelife is a member of the
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined707
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedcontentious works of art?
48:32I think what we saw quite poignantly
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined711
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedin the current context
48:45and in the current conversation.
48:46If black lives matter, how can
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined716
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedon display, continues on display
49:01or is removed. Who gets to decide?
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined720
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedsome different contextualisations.
49:16There's a great artist called
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined724
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedon a slave trader?
49:29I mean, America has been doing
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined729
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedthat was in the language
49:42of the statues. Could almost blend
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined733
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedwho wants to keep every statue.
49:57I mean, you know, I mean,
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined737
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedrooted back to the people
50:14that live in those places.
50:16I guess I'm using Colston again
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined744
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedwho the artist was that did it?
50:36Marc Quinn's attempt to replace
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined749
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedAndy Warhol's race riots
50:58that showed the Birmingham attacks.
50:59People were wondering whether he
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined754
undefined:undefined755
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedplinth, and it made me realise that,
51:18as important as who made the statue
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined759
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedso we see them differently? Yeah.
51:33I want people to understand and to
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined764
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefineddictatorship, division
52:00and reunification,
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined768
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedat different times unwelcome
52:27in the capital's public spaces,
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined772
undefined:undefined773
undefined:undefined774
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedof the museum is this head of Lenin
52:58that once topped a colossal statue
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined778
undefined:undefined779
undefined:undefined780
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedsymbol of toppled tyranny.
53:23And the idea of the curators
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined785
undefined:undefined786
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedall lined up.
54:03And it's certainly one solution
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined791
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedthe political edge,
54:32and it might make it easier
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined799
undefined:undefined800
undefined:undefined801
undefined:undefined802
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedof the debate about the future
55:10of our statues might be missing
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined808
undefined:undefined809
undefined:undefined810
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedwho was ever a victim
55:49of what this man stood for,
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined815
undefined:undefined816
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedchallenging my moral certainty
56:13about things.
56:16I watched Colston come down
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined822
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedof high-tech, our cheap clothing,
56:32and yet we don't want to see that.
56:36I suppose I wondered, how different
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined827
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedabout how exposed you feel
57:17on top of a plinth by trying it out.
57:20But I've not just been talking
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined833
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedpeople have argued about what work
57:45should be on public display
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined840
undefined:undefined841
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedabout what's important to us
58:06and, of course, they turn
undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960
undefined:undefined845
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefined
undefined:undefinedonto our anxieties.
58:29Which reminds me,
58:31how exactly do I get down from here?
58:35Has anybody got a ladder?