Forbidden Art episode 2

HDclump4

Mary Beard's Forbidden Art episode 2: Mary unpacks the complex subject of art and ideology, considering a range of very different works that have challenged the political and social status quo, expressing opinions and attitudes that many have wanted to silence - and even erase. Last Art posts on HDclump.com: https://hdclump.com/mary-beards-forbidden-art-episode-1/ https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-3/ https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-2/ https://hdclump.com/andy-warhols-america-episode-1/ https://hdclump.com/quentin-blake-the-drawing-of-my-life/ https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-4/ https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-3/ https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-2/ https://hdclump.com/the-art-mysteries-episode-1/

Transcript

00:06We live in hazardous times for art,

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undefined:undefinedby the statues they see

00:40in places of honour, and those

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undefined:undefinedfind offensive

01:08and feel should be forbidden.

01:14When it became a bit of a circus,

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undefined:undefinedbetween art, artists,

01:29and authorities of all sorts.

01:31Drop it.

01:35I want people to understand and to

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undefined:undefinedwhat we've wanted to hide.

01:50You've got eight or nine foot

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undefined:undefinedof our times, or of any.

02:33In the 21st century, all kinds

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undefined:undefinedcomedian Kathy Griffin went too far.

03:12Is that Donald Trump?

03:15That's Trump head?

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undefined:undefinedor opinions about Donald Trump.

03:42You could see it as a riff on the

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undefined:undefinedby the FBI on suspicion

04:01of threatening the president's

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undefined:undefinedphotographer at home in LA

04:37to discover why he thought

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undefined:undefinedpolitical".

04:54She said, "I want to do something

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undefined:undefinedof epic beheading paintings

05:09and sculptures throughout history.

05:11And so we kind of make this mask

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undefined:undefinedjust so you know.

05:24I won't give away what we're doing,

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undefined:undefinedThat's it right there. Pull it up.

05:42Drop it.

05:46When I first saw the photograph,

05:49the image that came to mind

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undefined:undefinedof Hillary Clinton.

06:06And what then is kind

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undefined:undefinedyour and Kathy's photograph

06:25just went...viral?

06:29That's part of the power

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undefined:undefinedlike a rubber mask with tomato

06:43ketchup on it, means it doesn't get

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undefined:undefinedhave the same, as you said,

07:02protection that paintings have.

07:05I mean, it angered people

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undefined:undefinedpeople were like, "This is too far,"

07:31you know, cut to you've got a

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undefined:undefinedand people are absolutely appalled

07:47by it, only to then

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Black lives matter. :undefined

undefined:undefinedstatue wars.

08:26It's wrong to desecrate a

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undefined:undefineda blockbuster exhibition

08:48showcasing many of the

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undefined:undefinedartistic movements

09:14like Dadaism and Cubism

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undefined:undefinedand enjoy, then you actually

09:31have to show it to them first.

09:33And they even produced a kind

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undefined:undefinedart, really.

09:50And on the first page

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undefined:undefinedagainst degenerate art is going for

10:11is anything that appears

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undefined:undefinedof the German First World War

10:48trenches was something

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undefined:undefinedit's hard to say, favourite,

11:17this image of two skulls, teeth

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undefined:undefined- Muller.

11:45In the Nazis' exhibition, the work

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undefined:undefinedclaimed it a success.

12:07They boast that in Munich alone,

12:09over two million people

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undefined:undefinedis shown for what it is,

12:33as the disintegration

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undefined:undefinedand many of the other banned artists

12:55have since become some of the most

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undefined:undefinedin the 1960s performing the banned

13:23Nazi salute to challenge Germans

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undefined:undefinedaround homosexuality and Aids

13:53with a disconcerting frankness.

13:59I found this Christ in

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undefined:undefinedwhich in terms of the spread

14:15of the HIV virus,

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undefined:undefinedat homophobia.

14:33But with the Aids crisis,

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undefined:undefinedis abnormal, unnatural, a bit evil.

15:03It is a gay plague.

15:04# How can you say

15:07# I go about things the wrong way?

15:10# I am human and I need... #

15:13In his final years, Jarman took

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undefined:undefineda preview

15:32shortly before a new exhibition.

15:36I met with writer Jon Savage,

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undefined:undefined..letting you say that, Mary!

16:06I'll say it again,

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undefined:undefinedyou've got HIV, this is pretty bad."

16:21He said, "John, it's not great,

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undefined:undefinedsaying, "I am going blind."

16:36Yes.

16:37Also what I get out of both

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undefined:undefinedAids differently."

17:07And if you come over to the other

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undefined:undefinedhis victory over the tabloids.

17:33And these paintings are at,

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undefined:undefinedin his life.

17:48Yeah. Telling you all the stuff

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undefined:undefinedthey are telling a truth.

18:1230 years on, Jarman's battles

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undefined:undefinednot long after Jarman's paintings,

18:33also fingering the tabloid press,

18:36is still one many feel should never

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undefined:undefinedmany works by young British artists.

19:06Conceived and curated to draw

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undefined:undefinedon their faces,

19:21Damien Hirst's

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A picture of the :undefinedMoors murderer, Myra Hindley,

20:01made with children's handprints

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undefined:undefinedHindley's victims said

20:18the picture was disgusting.

20:2225 years later,

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undefined:undefinedfrom the 1960s?

20:47So these are, like, hands?

20:52Yeah. Oh, that's, that's grim.

20:54That's probably quite offensive

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undefined:undefinedthem think about it again.

21:13It almost seems like they're

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undefined:undefinedSaatchi, buy it and then it becomes

21:29a commodity to keep

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undefined:undefinedmoral dilemmas about the piece.

21:57I'd sort of been through all the

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undefined:undefinedunder polythene,

22:08accumulating this sort of dust,

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undefined:undefinedabout the project... Mm-hm.

22:26..but what point

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undefined:undefinedease of its branding - evil,

22:41don't like, lock it up.

22:43And also, I understood

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undefined:undefineddisturbed that it was in me,

23:03but there was something quite

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undefined:undefinedwas something about that image

23:28I felt was important to sort of

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undefined:undefinedfor, like, decades

23:45and decades, and millions

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undefined:undefinedand thank the sweet Lord God

24:00for this kind of horror because

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undefined:undefinedthey try to kind of come over

24:14all kind of like the beadle

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undefined:undefinedparents of the murdered children,

24:32that it should, you know, it should

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undefined:undefinedof a circus, I was almost sort of

24:51blamed for trying to find a way

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undefined:undefinedupsets you about it?"

25:16And I say, "I've lost a child."

25:19Yeah, but...

25:21This isn't a celebration

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undefined:undefinedto the event.

25:42I make images of images that have

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undefined:undefinedabout what the power of an image is

26:07and what it is for.

26:09These are old

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undefined:undefinedChapel of the Mercers Company,

26:33there is an extraordinarily rare

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undefined:undefinedhis head has fallen back,

27:20his mouth is open.

27:23What we can pick out

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undefined:undefinedthat go far beyond

27:43what we read about in the Bible.

27:45The whole crown of thorns has gone,

27:47but that hand has gone,

27:49this arm has gone,

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undefined:undefinedbetween Protestants and Catholics.

28:15Tens of thousands of figurative

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undefined:undefinedas a form of vandalism,

28:33but actually, it was part of some

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undefined:undefinedthe image to God?

28:55Or were you actually worshipping

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undefined:undefinedartist in doing this?

29:18There's hardly been a religion

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undefined:undefinedextreme form of prohibition

29:46is and has been in Islam.

29:51Its mosques don't feature

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undefined:undefinedover the last few decades,

30:09satirical cartoons of the Prophet

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undefined:undefinedin parts of the Islamic world

30:37of representing Muhammad, especially

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undefined:undefineda specialist in Islamic history,

31:00to explore them further.

31:05So this is an image from the

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undefined:undefinedat Muhammad. Even the camels, yeah.

31:24And this is an angel coming

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undefined:undefinedso it's a chronicle.

31:41It tells the story of the Mongols.

31:43And the author, Rashid al-Din,

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undefined:undefinedvery carefully, move that,

32:01we've got another image which looks

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undefined:undefinedat both ends.

32:16That's right, and I think it shows

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undefined:undefinedof Islam

32:37as being opposed to images

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undefined:undefinedrare or a bit subversive?

32:54Certainly not subversive.

32:56Because the author of this text

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undefined:undefinedNot absolutely.

33:19In general, to be very broad brush,

33:22Shi'i positions on the depiction

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undefined:undefinedhere, which tends to move away

33:40from at least showing the features

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undefined:undefinedto be prohibitive.

33:57But those are matters

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undefined:undefinedreverential. Absolutely.

34:16In fact, as late as the 2000s,

34:20the legal opinions of many scholars

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undefined:undefinednot the image itself.

34:39I think we should also stress

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undefined:undefinedare perhaps

34:55Eurocentric in that sense.

34:57You know, we expect to see

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undefined:undefinedobservation that it is now

35:15a very Western point of view

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undefined:undefinedand the value we place on looking.

35:40In a way, the merits

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undefined:undefinedthe virtues of transparency.

35:56But not all cultures

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undefined:undefinedmade by the Baoule people.

36:18These pieces were once subject

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undefined:undefinedand it could diminish the power

36:37of this to be impactful

36:39unless you are part of a very

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undefined:undefinedand it would be worn with a raffia

37:02cloak, palm fronds as well,

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undefined:undefinedand women who would be excluded.

37:31But if you were to defy convention,

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undefined:undefinedwe've got out here?

37:51These figures would be commissioned

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undefined:undefinedin very real ways.

38:10So you ignore them, and then,

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undefined:undefinedwho aren't meant to gaze upon this,

38:31the more that its power,

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undefined:undefinedas hard as we can.

38:49Now, is that a problem?

38:51Well, I mean, we're used to looking

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undefined:undefinedin which respect and understanding

39:07is actually connected

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undefined:undefinedGus is reminding us

39:34that looking and not looking can be

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undefined:undefinedwho's making them

39:52and how they're being shown

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undefined:undefinedpublic in the sense that we own it,

40:13even if we can rarely see it,

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undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedaround the time of World War I

40:35to decorate the grand

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undefined:undefinedstaff and visitors,

40:55the view that it offers of the other

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undefined:undefinedbut when we asked for permission,

41:19the Foreign Office refused

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undefined:undefinedGreece and France.

41:41Below, scantily-clad Belgium,

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undefined:undefinedwith a bowl of fruit,

42:01infantilising the people

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undefined:undefinedthese all the time

42:22and you don't realise the

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undefined:undefinedto those people that, yeah,

42:33like, Africa's just

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undefined:undefinedbeen brought down a long time ago.

43:02But there's a more complicated

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undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedForeign Office interiors

43:26were in need of decoration, he

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undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedscene of Britannia the peacemaker

43:48was trickiest of all.

43:51We now tend to concentrate

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undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedworried about the representation

44:09of Japan as a Geisha.

44:11But happily, they were able

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undefined:undefinedof racism himself,

44:30when the murals were attacked

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undefined:undefinedenough without the spacious

44:54decorations of a foreign Jew at the

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undefined:undefinedfor more than a century,

45:12and he was not Jewish.

45:15For us, there are some sobering

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undefined:undefinedfamily had lived for generations.

45:37And in a way, the prejudices

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undefined:undefinedto the challenge posed by statues

46:02in public places.

46:08SHOUTING

46:14COMMENTARY: For centuries, he took

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undefined:undefined13 days after the killing

46:31of George Floyd by US police.

46:34The monument to Edward Colston,

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undefined:undefinedand divided opinion.

47:05For a lot of people, it's a reminder

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undefined:undefinedto do is to take our history away,

47:24whether it be good or bad.

47:25I'm not sure if, you know,

47:28vandalism is the right answer,

47:31but I believe people wanted to see

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undefined:undefinedbut there's a better way to go

47:49about wanting people to hear

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undefined:undefinedbecause you now see things

48:06from a different way?

48:13Aindrea Emelife is a member of the

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undefined:undefinedcontentious works of art?

48:32I think what we saw quite poignantly

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undefined:undefinedin the current context

48:45and in the current conversation.

48:46If black lives matter, how can

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undefined:undefinedon display, continues on display

49:01or is removed. Who gets to decide?

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undefined:undefinedsome different contextualisations.

49:16There's a great artist called

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undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedon a slave trader?

49:29I mean, America has been doing

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined729

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedthat was in the language

49:42of the statues. Could almost blend

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined733

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedwho wants to keep every statue.

49:57I mean, you know, I mean,

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined737

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedrooted back to the people

50:14that live in those places.

50:16I guess I'm using Colston again

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined744

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedwho the artist was that did it?

50:36Marc Quinn's attempt to replace

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined749

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedAndy Warhol's race riots

50:58that showed the Birmingham attacks.

50:59People were wondering whether he

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined754

undefined:undefined755

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedplinth, and it made me realise that,

51:18as important as who made the statue

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined759

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedso we see them differently? Yeah.

51:33I want people to understand and to

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined764

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefineddictatorship, division

52:00and reunification,

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined768

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedat different times unwelcome

52:27in the capital's public spaces,

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined772

undefined:undefined773

undefined:undefined774

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedof the museum is this head of Lenin

52:58that once topped a colossal statue

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined778

undefined:undefined779

undefined:undefined780

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedsymbol of toppled tyranny.

53:23And the idea of the curators

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined785

undefined:undefined786

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedall lined up.

54:03And it's certainly one solution

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined791

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedthe political edge,

54:32and it might make it easier

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined799

undefined:undefined800

undefined:undefined801

undefined:undefined802

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedof the debate about the future

55:10of our statues might be missing

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined808

undefined:undefined809

undefined:undefined810

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedwho was ever a victim

55:49of what this man stood for,

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined815

undefined:undefined816

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedchallenging my moral certainty

56:13about things.

56:16I watched Colston come down

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined822

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedof high-tech, our cheap clothing,

56:32and yet we don't want to see that.

56:36I suppose I wondered, how different

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined827

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedabout how exposed you feel

57:17on top of a plinth by trying it out.

57:20But I've not just been talking

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined833

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedpeople have argued about what work

57:45should be on public display

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined840

undefined:undefined841

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedabout what's important to us

58:06and, of course, they turn

undefined:undefined00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,960

undefined:undefined845

undefined:undefined

undefined:undefinedonto our anxieties.

58:29Which reminds me,

58:31how exactly do I get down from here?

58:35Has anybody got a ladder?

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