The deeply personal values of a gay minister and a religious-right family man collide when they agree to exchange lives to debate same-sex marriage.
Director: Brent Kawchuk
Writer: Brent Kawchuk
Stars: Dylan Crozier, Vinnie Chiodo, Craig Chandler
Director: Brent Kawchuk
Writer: Brent Kawchuk
Stars: Dylan Crozier, Vinnie Chiodo, Craig Chandler
Category
🎥
Short filmTranscript
00:00What he's asked us to do, the night before he was betrayed, he gathered his disciples
00:05together.
00:06And we're going to involve him in a five-day outing.
00:17These are the activists, the troops.
00:28This is Christophobia.
00:29They're afraid of Christ.
00:30Hallelujah.
00:31Hallelujah.
00:59Hi, my name is Dylan Crozier, and Craig, we're looking forward to meeting you and to
01:10share with you again what our life is all about here in Vancouver.
01:15A Rainbow Community Church is a gay-affirming church.
01:18It's not a gay church.
01:19We have many straight people who also attend our church.
01:23The fact is, we're not asking Craig or his church or any other church in Canada to change
01:29their views.
01:30We're not asking them to marry us.
01:32All we're asking is that they respect the fact that we, at Rainbow Community Church,
01:37can marry same-sex couples, and we believe that there are many, many gay people who are
01:42caught up in churches where they're told that they're an abomination.
01:47And where does this hate come from?
01:49I'm going to say it right out front.
01:51It stems from the churches and their hatred and their bigotry toward gay people.
01:57God's love is unconditional.
02:00When he says that he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, but that the
02:04world through him might be saved, it doesn't say except gay people.
02:09We've just recently moved into a new home that we are, again, going to plan renovating,
02:14and my folks basically came from Florida to help us out to do that.
02:18And they don't really know, well, they don't know that we're doing this documentary.
02:24And I've been reluctant to tell them that we're doing this because my parents love me
02:34very much, and they're worried about me coming out to friends and other family because they
02:42don't want me to be hurt by anybody else.
02:45Since I have come out as a gay person, my family have virtually backed away.
02:53I have four daughters, and there's really only one that supports me.
02:59What do I have in common with Craig is our faith.
03:03Again, we believe in the same God.
03:05We believe in his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
03:10And that's what we have in common.
03:12And we have partners that we love.
03:16And mine just happens to be of the same sex.
03:25Hi guys, I'm Craig Chandler, and I'm Chief Executive Officer of Concerned Christians
03:30Canada.
03:31We're a Christian organization that lobbies for family values.
03:35Our family's views on same-sex marriage are biblically based.
03:40The Bible in various parts is quite clear about not just marriage itself, but homosexuality
03:48overall.
03:49But Christ is also pretty clear about loving everyone as well, not necessarily embracing
03:54what they do, but realizing all people have vices and whatnot, and that's how we see it.
04:01I just think that a lie has been spoken into their lives, and they're living out that lie.
04:08And I feel bad that they're not fulfilling all who God made them to be.
04:15This isn't about civil unions.
04:17This isn't about benefits.
04:19This is about the word marriage, which is a religious institution.
04:24The word marriage existed before Canada even did.
04:26And that's what it's about.
04:27When you take away a fundamental building block, which is recognized by society, the
04:32domino falls.
04:34There is a backlash in Canada because we feel freedom of religion.
04:37It's being eroded, that the new bigotry is against Christians, and people seem to think
04:42that's all right to pick on people for their belief systems.
04:46We'll talk to politicians on issues that are a concern to us, like same-sex marriage or
04:50abortion or other things along those lines.
04:53We'll write letters.
04:54We'll do email campaigns.
04:56A lot of the same things that the activists on the gay side do as well.
05:01I think so many times that people have a misunderstanding that the objections to same-sex
05:06marriage are not based on anything other than a belief system, out of sincere religious
05:12beliefs, not out of hate.
05:14I want people to understand I have friends who are homosexual.
05:17I'll actually go golfing with them.
05:19The rule is they don't bring up their lifestyle.
05:22I do not bring up my religion.
05:28That's a great common element to be meeting somebody on, is that we both believe that
05:33Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
05:35He'll come again, and that's something really wonderful to have a common thread to start
05:40off with.
05:41I think that overall, after it's all said and done, we'll be leaving a little thumbprint
05:47on their lives, and they'll probably be leaving one on ours, so I'm sure that we'll both be
05:52changed slightly.
05:53It'll be interesting, though, to see exactly what those changes are.
05:57I don't know.
05:58I don't change that much still, and I'm pretty stubborn.
06:02But you'll definitely leave a thumbprint.
06:05Bring us to remember this is not a choice.
06:22Nobody would ever, in this life, choose to be gay.
06:27God chose it for us.
06:28It's a cross we bear.
06:29Hey, Dylan.
06:30How are you?
06:31Good.
06:32Me too.
06:33Welcome to Calgary, my friend.
06:35I hope we're going to have a good weekend.
06:36I know we will.
06:37Yeah, absolutely.
06:38Great.
06:39I felt really bad, too.
06:40I choked when you talked about only one of your daughters.
06:41That must be tough.
06:42Very tough.
06:43And that's something where I was like, man, that sucks.
06:44Very tough.
06:45I was quite sympathetic when I heard that.
06:46I couldn't imagine my daughter or my son or whatever not being supportive of their own
06:47father, if we're going to make sense.
06:48That's horrible.
07:04And this is Julie, my beautiful wife.
07:22Julie.
07:23Pleasure to meet you.
07:24I try to keep everything as clean as possible, but with two kids, it's almost impossible.
07:30Dylan and Caitlyn.
07:31And Brock.
07:32Oh, for goodness sakes.
07:33Bring it to your room here.
07:34Okay.
07:35Come on up here.
07:36I'm just going to kick off my shoes there.
07:37Welcome to the Freedom Radio Network.
07:38It's another great week, and this week we have a special guest.
07:39I applaud you for coming onto the show, because so you know, Dylan, this is one of the most
07:40right-wing shows in this area.
07:41Okay.
07:42Okay.
07:43And you deserve a special welcome.
15:43Millions of couples are having this debate, too, and this is why this documentary exists.
15:48Well, the change began to happen when I looked around the table and I just asked the question,
15:53what would you do if your son came to you and told you he was gay?
15:57What would be the response?
15:59And then, how do you feel your husband would respond?
16:03And a lot of the women, I didn't mean to do it, started to cry.
16:06Why can't we have compassion, Julie, and have sympathy for his pain and realize there's right and wrong?
16:13Yes, there are extremes on both sides.
16:15I acknowledge that.
16:17But somewhere we've got to meet in the middle.
16:19You're talking about laws and I'm talking about everyday stuff.
16:23Julie, I'm talking about everyday stuff, too.
16:26But what you're not getting is we're talking to the media that's primarily liberal and is going to twist our agenda around.
16:34And you're not toeing the line on that.
16:36And I think that's wrong because what is going to happen with this documentary is going to be exactly what I say.
16:45It's going to be something you didn't want it to be and you're going to end up agreeing with me.
16:50And you're going to go, that's not what I said.
16:52I know, sweetie, you're a gentle, kind-hearted person.
16:57This is what I do for a living.
17:01And we are being played here.
17:04And what's happening now is we're going to be played against each other.
17:08And that's what's going on.
17:10I'm saying things that millions of Canadians are afraid to say.
17:13I am.
17:15Millions of Canadians are afraid to say what I say.
17:18It's a fundamental battle that's happening once.
17:22And when we lose it, it's done.
17:25It's done.
17:27That's it.
17:30He can have his benefits.
17:33He can have his pension plans.
17:36He can have anything he wants, including his churches.
17:40But why can't the people who share my values have their churches as well?
17:48Reverse discrimination has occurred.
17:52And it's so rampant that even those who are related to me can't even see the persecution.
17:59I'm the minority now, not Dylan.
18:03I'm the persecuted, not Dylan.
18:07I know what Dylan went through.
18:22There needs to be a balance.
18:31Between rights and privileges for minorities.
18:40And sincere heartfelt beliefs.
18:46A people of faith.
18:48It's not about hate.
18:50It's not about hate.
18:52I believe this.
18:59I believe this.
19:01I believe this.
19:17Homosexuality hurts the basic foundation of society.
19:21We are for minority rights, but we are against the change of marriage definition.
19:27So let's keep marriage as the union of?
19:30One man, one woman.
19:32Amen.
19:33Have natural laws changed?
19:35Has human biology changed?
19:38What has changed?
19:40Nothing changed.
19:44Hey, buddy.
19:45How you doing?
19:46Good.
19:47So, which one bugged you the most?
19:51Well, every one did.
19:53What's the most, though?
19:55Well, again, I think it's all built on fear and supposition.
19:59It's not fear, like he was saying.
20:01This is about freedom of religion.
20:04And it seems that the gay movement doesn't recognize that as something serious.
20:11And if you notice, it's about the word marriage.
20:16People here are fine with domestic relationships or civil unions or whatever.
20:23It's the institution of marriage that there's a problem with.
20:29Open your legs a bit.
20:36Back up a bit more.
20:37Even though you haven't golfed before, I find it's the best way to vent frustrations, to get to know somebody.
20:44The wife come here and forget, but she's here now, so we can fight on the course.
20:49See where that board is? Try to get the board dead on like that.
20:52I think you'll do fine.
20:58Hey, it's playable.
20:59Did you find it?
21:02For a guy who's never played golf before, Dylan, it's not bad at all.
21:05These things ever tip?
21:07No.
21:14Okay, I'm going to teach you what a mulligan is.
21:16Okay.
21:20Are we counting the last bit there?
21:23We're counting every stroke.
21:35I think Craig and Julie, that this is a part of where they get their strength here at First Assembly.
21:40I know they look forward to it. They've talked a lot about it all week.
21:44We want to welcome you today.
21:45Again, if you're visiting with us for the first time, we are so glad that you're here.
21:49We just want you to relax.
21:51Sometimes, getting used to new surroundings takes a little bit.
21:55We just welcome you and invite you to sit back and relax.
22:15The plans that you have for us are plans for hope, peace, and prosperity.
22:21Plans for a future for us.
22:23Hopeful blessings.
22:24We're expected in.
22:26In Jesus Christ.
22:27Plans to make us head, not tail.
22:30To make us the top and not the bottom.
22:34Plans for healing.
22:37Plans for hope.
22:39Plans for wholeness.
22:40Plans for a great, incredible future in Jesus we love.
22:43We love Craig and Julie and their beautiful children.
22:45We love when you release pouring and showering your blessing on them.
22:48Father, where they come up against a brick wall and come like they couldn't go anymore.
22:52Why should the shadows come?
22:59Why should my heart feel lonely?
23:03For those who are in this room and they just feel like they've written a letter of defeat and they've mailed it.
23:12They've mailed it in.
23:13It's over.
23:14They've thrown in the towel.
23:15Person whose hand you're holding could be in this very moment that we're saving someone's life.
23:21See, that's too dramatic.
23:22No, it's not.
23:24It could be this moment that grace comes from you to them and that faith rises again in their heart and they begin to believe.
23:38Let grace come to this body, Lord.
23:41Let grace come to this body.
23:54Well, I arrived in Calgary on Thursday, not really sure everything that was going to happen, what to expect, but prepared for the worst.
24:04And it's been an interesting roller coaster kind of ride since then.
24:09We had a wonderful day yesterday, actually.
24:11An interesting evening.
24:12It was kind of a wind down and we just sat around the living room, had a great talk.
24:18And around midnight, Craig asked Julie.
24:22She had asked some questions.
24:24She's a quiet person.
24:26And he looked at her and asked her, do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
24:32And she was very quiet about it.
24:34And finally, she said, I'm not sure.
24:37She said, I had always heard the one side of it.
24:41But she said after talking and meeting Dylan, she said, no, I'm not so sure.
24:46And he got very upset.
24:49And that began four horrible hours for me.
24:54He wouldn't let up on it.
24:56And he felt that she had totally betrayed him.
24:58He didn't tell the story himself, but this turned into an all-night session that made me very uncomfortable.
25:04That really upset me, I can't say.
25:07That her thinking, her opinion had to be the exact same as his.
25:11Or, you know, he was threatening divorce and other things with her.
25:17It was a very upsetting night for me.
25:20I had never really witnessed anything like that before, to be honest with you.
25:24Really grew to love Craig, actually.
25:27And I was, I have to be honest, I was extremely disappointed in him last night.
25:32All the good that he did basically was undone in my eyes with the way he treated Julie.
25:38And just, it was upsetting.
25:44So I'm not sure, at this moment I'm really comfortable having him stay at my home.
25:49Definitely welcome to come to the barbecue and do things and meet people.
25:54But as a guest in my home, I'm not sure right now.
25:57I'll have to talk to Vinny about that.
26:05Hey Joe, Craig.
26:07I've got some good news all as well.
26:10We've resolved some issues and decided to approach on it.
26:17And realized after the fact that it's happened to be bad timing.
26:22That's all, until I was here.
26:24It's nothing to do with anything else.
26:26And, yeah, more than happy to have your full camera crew come and talk to us.
26:33One on one or together, it doesn't matter to either of us.
26:36We're fine with it.
26:39I asked her a question, she didn't give a yes or a no.
26:43I got frustrated with that.
26:45And we ended up in some marital conflict throughout this weekend.
26:50It's a good thing.
26:52We've got to communicate a little better on some stuff.
26:54He's so passionate about this issue.
26:57He saw what he thought was me going to the other side.
27:01And he was just very troubled.
27:08So when we actually had time to air it out and no one was around.
27:11Husband and wife can talk and say, what do you think?
27:15Where are you coming from?
27:16I realize we're on the same side.
27:18God doesn't want people practicing homosexuality because it's just not healthy.
27:23It's not a healthy place to be emotionally.
27:25It's not a healthy place to be physically.
27:27And it goes to the extreme of having AIDS.
27:30But, I mean, God wants to protect us, really.
27:34And these people can be all together in every other way.
27:38But they are deceived.
27:40Before I met Dylan, I agreed with the initial comment that he said that he was born that way.
27:47After what I've heard, I no longer believe that.
27:50I believe Dylan has made a choice to live the way he does.
27:54Whereas others might be born that way.
27:56Don't get me wrong.
27:57I'm not saying that's not the way it is.
27:59But Dylan has definitely made a choice to be who he is.
28:02But the bottom line is, I mean, we really cannot endorse gay marriage.
28:06We cannot say it's good when it's not.
28:08No.
28:26I'm going to meet Jenny, which I'm excited to do.
28:30And I'm going to be staying at Dylan's place.
28:32Sort of seeing his world like he saw mine.
28:35And I'm looking forward to it.
28:37I'm not apprehensive.
28:39I just don't know what's in store.
28:41Because I know what Dylan went through.
28:44You know, we've created a friendship.
28:46So I'm meeting a friend.
28:47That's exactly how I look at this.
28:48I'm going to a friend's house, meeting a friend.
28:51I'm going to meet his friends and discuss the issues.
28:54Hey, there he is.
28:56Hey, buddy.
28:57Hey, Greg, how are you?
28:58How you doing, man?
28:59Good to see you.
29:00Good to see you, too.
29:01Vinny.
29:02Hi, Craig.
29:03Nice to meet you, finally.
29:04Thanks for inviting me into your house.
29:05Oh, you're quite welcome.
29:06Appreciate it.
29:07I've been looking forward to your cooking.
29:10I have high expectations now, eh?
29:12Make yourself at home.
29:14Absolutely.
29:15Thank you very much.
29:16Appreciate that.
29:17You're welcome.
29:18That's a beckon welcoming call pretty soon.
29:21Welcome to our construction zone.
29:23Thanks, man.
29:26Appreciate your hospitality.
29:27We'll give you a 15-minute nap, then we go to work.
29:32I'll enjoy the 15 minutes.
29:35To make it fair, if you guys fight, that'd be great.
29:39Okay?
29:41If you want to throw me a true off the top.
29:44Honest truth, I think we maybe had one disagreement.
29:47Really?
29:48In the two years.
29:50See, we felt so comfortable with Dylan that we could fight in front of him.
29:53Just like family.
29:54There you go.
29:55See?
29:56There you go.
29:57I think there's a lot of people in the gay community who may think that,
30:00gee, these Christian evangelicals are all these bigoted guys who, you know.
30:06I want people to understand that I can disagree with something without it being hate.
30:10Yes.
30:11It's sad that we can have dialogue.
30:14Yet the politicians wouldn't allow us as people to have that dialogue
30:17before they made the decision on this issue without consulting Canadians.
30:21That's the big problem with this.
30:23We probably could have had a compromise that everyone agreed on.
30:27If the Canadians did it.
30:29But anytime you get the politicians involved, they screw everything up.
30:40This is not a place we normally hang out.
30:42But we wanted to expose you to a little bit of the gay culture here in the Vancouver area.
30:48But again, it's not usually where we like to spend our pastime.
30:53And I know that.
30:54I know you guys.
30:55I know drag ain't your thing.
30:56No.
30:57It's fine.
30:58But I understand the intent here.
31:00Yeah.
31:01And that's fine.
31:02I'm a good sport.
31:03Let's have a little fun.
31:04And here's Drew.
31:06Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Eve.
31:24Happy birthday to you.
31:36Welcome to our beautiful city.
31:38Thank you for coming to the show.
31:41Would you like to get married?
31:43I already am.
31:44Oh.
31:45Believe me, I don't mind that.
31:47I've had a few husbands in my day time.
31:49And some even in the evening time.
31:51And some of them I got married at night.
31:53Divorced by morning.
31:54Some didn't even make it through the night.
31:58I think it's a fabulous thing that gay people want to get married.
32:00Why?
32:01Personally, I plan to get married at least ten times.
32:03I can wear a different dress every time.
32:06Are you enjoying yourself tonight, my good man?
32:08How about reserving judgment?
32:10You're reserving judgment?
32:11Oh, I like that.
32:12It's like the jury.
32:13Reserving judgment.
32:14Like the jury is out.
32:16It's okay.
32:18Oh.
32:19I see you don't have a gay hairdresser.
32:24You should see a gay boyfriend to get your hair cut, okay?
32:26Every gay boy who cuts your hair will give you the famous hairdresser prize.
32:30I'm sure.
32:31Just so you know, okay?
32:33Why don't you embrace yourself?
32:34Wait a minute.
32:35My Italian hairdresser does that.
32:37So maybe he's gay.
32:38I don't know.
32:39Maybe he is.
32:40He just doesn't know how to cut hair.
32:54I'm a dumb, dumb caterer.
32:56I don't know.
32:57I'm a dumb, dumb caterer.
33:00What do you say?
33:02Pretty much.
33:03I think you're pretty much.
33:07Amazing what can happen over a glass of beer.
33:10You know, I think there was a solution on the same-sex marriage thread.
33:13Ginger ale, for me.
33:14In a very big way, but...
33:16Vinny and I, I think, really need to sort of massage the message.
33:20Is that fair?
33:21Yeah, I would say so.
33:22So let me get this straight. While there's men in dress singing, going to the chapel, you guys figured out same-sex marriage?
33:31Yes, we did.
33:32Oddly enough.
33:34Very ironic, wasn't it?
33:36When you put it that way, the irony is overwhelming. No one's going to believe the irony.
33:43Well, you'll probably have a harder time convincing your side.
33:46Done?
33:47Done.
33:48Good plan.
33:49Done.
33:53This is CKNW News Talk 980, a Chorus Radio Company.
33:59Live on CKNW and across the Chorus Radio Network, this is Warren.
34:05Okay.
34:06Now, here's Peter Warren.
34:08All right. First of all, why have we got two gay guys? Where's your wife?
34:15Well, she's quite busy right now, and what happened when Dylan came, Vinny didn't come, so she kind of felt odd.
34:23You know, if it's just really Dylan and I sort of doing this experiment, that she'd stay home.
34:27So that's her decision. I'm not going to push her and let her... I'll let her decide.
34:31I think many of the lady listeners out there would appreciate a husband that allows the wife to make her own decisions.
34:36Oh, cute.
34:38Dylan and Vinny, explain this. What happened? What did you do? Why did you get involved with this?
34:43I went to Calgary and stayed with Craig and Julie and met...
34:48For how long?
34:49Five days, I believe.
34:51Five days. Okay.
34:52And met a lot of his redneck friends.
34:55It was very interesting.
34:57Yes.
34:58There's a lot of suicides in the gay community.
35:02I myself almost did that.
35:04And we just wanted to bring awareness that it's okay to be gay and a Christian as well.
35:10The thing that I find the hardest to understand is he's calling homosexuality a sin.
35:15Yeah.
35:16And yet he agrees that people are born this way.
35:19Yeah.
35:20So wouldn't it be a terrible joke to say that God would make us and then call us an abomination?
35:28It doesn't make sense to me.
35:29No.
35:30And that is so far removed from the God that I know, who loves unconditionally.
35:35And it doesn't say accept gay people.
35:37There are people out there that are Christians and are activists, but we're not these hate mongers.
35:44We can disagree with something on their merit and principle and not resort to lavatory politics
35:49and debate things on merit and principle and still have beliefs and embrace freedom of religion at the same time.
35:56And the best way we discovered for me to have the freedom of religion, which is what I fear,
36:01that the solution was get the government out of marriage entirely, bring it back to the churches,
36:08and allow each individual church to decide who they want to marry.
36:12Right.
36:13Part of our compromise was you have civil unions for all.
36:16If the government still wants to stay involved in marriage, which I doubt they're going to want to give up,
36:21that they change it to civil unions for everyone.
36:24And then if you want to get married, you can go to a church that will marry you.
36:27It's going to be really strange, isn't it, if the country adopts the proposal from you guys?
36:33Well, you know what?
36:34It would mean, Peter, they're listening, because what you have is not politicians.
36:37You have regular people who live their lives and are just trying to figure something out.
36:41Once this is all over, will you see each other again, or is that it, baby?
36:47No, I think we have formed a bond.
36:50As strange as it may sound, even though we're on absolute opposing views on this,
36:54I think, yeah, I could call Craig my friend for sure.
36:57Let's find out what Canadians think.
36:59The lines are wide open, toll free, I'll pay the dime.
37:02Like, it's completely absurd to me that calling it a sin, like it's a disgrace against marriage and whatnot.
37:10Like, where are these people from to think this?
37:13Well, he's from Alberta.
37:16I'll let you talk to him.
37:19It comes up right there, actually.
37:21It does.
37:22But what I see in this world, too, and I hear it in your tone, is religious bigotry.
37:26I'm not entitled to have my views, and there's Christophobia out there.
37:30I mean, get over the phobia of being this way, and allow people to have their own views.
37:35If you want equality and you want tolerance, you need to tolerate me, too.
37:39The militant left will not stop at just having equal marriage, for example.
37:45They want to silence anyone that they feel is a different Jew than them.
37:49It's complete militancy.
37:51And you know what?
37:52Dylan and Vinny do not represent that radical left-wing grouping that we're worried about.
37:58Why don't we take away women's voting rights and make black people sit at the back of the bus?
38:02That's what the left does.
38:04The left brings out the rusty artillery of abuse, can't debate on the topic, can't debate on merit and principle.
38:09No, you aren't.
38:10You're sitting there bringing up, it's ridiculous.
38:12You know, point proven, keep blabbing on.
38:14Everyone that I've done therapy with, I have not found an individual yet who was homosexual, who was born that way.
38:22I was able to find out exactly.
38:24Joel, Joel, Joel, hang on, because I'm having a whole Vinny down here.
38:29Joel, you know, I don't know where you get your information from, but I do not choose to be this way.
38:35In fact, if I could have had my way, and I prayed many times to the Lord to cure me of this affliction,
38:40and I can't change my nature.
38:43I was absolutely born this way.
38:45What really cheesed me off, the homosexual guy talked about spending a week or two with heterosexuals.
38:53And his comment was, yeah, I had some good times with those redneck friends.
38:59Let me ask you this question.
39:00Oh, my God.
39:01Hold on a minute.
39:02Get off it, get off it.
39:03You're twisting and distorting.
39:06Sir, it was meant as a joke.
39:08It was a joke.
39:09It was a joke.
39:10Come on, get a life.
39:11If the other person would have said, gee, I had a really good time with their fag friends,
39:17would have been accepted the same way.
39:19And that's what bothers me.
39:21A documentary on this particular subject with our guests.
39:27It will be shown on, forgive me, the CBC News World sometime this fall.
39:40Oh, Lord, it's good to me.
39:44And so I thank the Lord for giving me things I need.
39:49God of all people, we thank you and praise you we can gather here in this new home.
39:54May they receive the blessings that they so richly deserve.
39:58We thank you and praise you in the name of Jesus.
40:00Amen.
40:01Amen.
40:05It's an unbelievable neighbor, man.
40:08I need to stand up and wear some of this off.
40:10I'm standing, I don't think it's going to hurt me.
40:12No, Craig, you need to run.
40:14Oh.
40:15You can't stand there.
40:18Why?
40:19That was a good one.
40:20Why can't there be more Christians like you that are willing to sit down and have this dialogue with us?
40:25Because a lot of them are, you're an abomination.
40:28We don't want, you're not even a Christian.
40:31You're nothing.
40:32There was one of my friends that Dylan met that I warned Dylan about that he'd be the worst.
40:38Do you know what?
40:39After meeting Dylan, folks, he has not used the word fag since.
40:44That's excellent.
40:45No, because of Dylan meeting.
40:47It was education.
40:48He doesn't at all.
40:49He was in tears when he talked to you, wasn't he?
40:51This is an issue where we needed honest debate.
40:54And I know this is an emotional issue, too, and I don't mind getting some because some of my friends, for example,
40:58weren't as hospitable to Dylan as they should have been.
41:01So don't feel bad if you get hostile with me because I won't take the person.
41:06If you've made such an issue about marriage,
41:10then you've put people like myself who didn't agree with gay marriage at the beginning of this.
41:16It's the stuff that I've heard from the right that has put me in a situation to have to make a choice.
41:21And the position you've put me in is to say, you know what?
41:24It's got to be equal, as equal, as equal, or nothing.
41:28I feel homosexuality is a sin.
41:31Period.
41:32That's my view.
41:34But I also understand that we have to find some way of living together on this earth.
41:39Period.
41:40It has to be done.
41:41Bottom line.
41:42What's your compromise that you guys have come up with?
41:44This is what I think is logical.
41:45Get marriage completely out of the concept of marriage.
41:50Completely out of the hands of government.
41:53Leave it for the churches.
41:55Vinny's church can say, you know what?
41:56We're marrying homosexuals.
41:58That's his church's decision.
41:59My church can say, we're not.
42:01So when I get married at Rainbow Community Church, and I take a trip with my spouse to Calgary, and I come to your church, do you recognize my marriage?
42:10I think we need to make marriage federal, not provincial.
42:13And then, yes, they'll have to.
42:15Good.
42:16You know, long as I can come to Calgary and say, you know what?
42:19I got married in this church, and you recognize that, then you know what?
42:22We've made a step.
42:23That is an issue that's been an issue nationwide, guys.
42:26That we need to move it from provincial jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction.
42:30That way, it's a policy across the board.
42:33And guess what we just did here?
42:35We solved the problem.
42:36You said earlier that you were hung up on the word marriage.
42:38So under what you have said, I can still be married.
42:42Yeah.
42:43And I can still use the term marriage.
42:44And I know that.
42:45And that has to be equal.
42:46Guess what?
42:47I know, and I'm gulping doing that.
42:50The reality is, on this particular issue, this is a compromise from our side
42:55because, heck, we've lost the fight.
42:58I'm not delusional.
43:06Remember, I have friends who are, and I also have a past,
43:09which I haven't discussed in this documentary.
43:12And I don't feel comfortable in doing that.
43:14It's not me, but it was a close friend of mine who was gay.
43:19And, well, that's the first time I'm saying it, so I will so the viewers understand.
43:25I found my friend Pascal dead in my garage.
43:33And he was the founder of the Progressive Group for Any Event of Business with Me.
43:37And he committed suicide.
43:41And I found out through going through his stuff and other things that he was in love with me.
43:46Wow, that was like a heavy hit to take.
43:48This guy killed himself, and he was gay, and he was attracted to him.
43:52That sort of life-changing thing sort of makes you go,
43:55okay, you don't hate anybody because you don't want them to go to that area.
44:01Calgary, Australia
44:07Welcome Craig Chandler from Calgary.
44:12We welcome all our other visitors.
44:14If you're visiting for the first time, I trust that you'll feel a warm presence of the Lord
44:18and join with us in worship and praise.
44:31Now the Church, in fairness to those who have been deeply hurt, has done lots of damage.
44:38It has done lots of damage.
44:40And remember, it's composed of human beings.
44:43And a saying that I often say is, Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven.
45:00Dear Lord Jesus, I thank you for dying on the cross for my sins.
45:13His blood was shed for your sins.
45:15Just keep thanking him, keep loving him, keep serving him.
45:21His blood was shed for you, Craig.
45:26He loves you.
45:31It's so wonderful to have you.
45:33I love you too. I love your brother.
45:36On the one hand I go, God can do anything.
45:38And on the other hand I go, maybe he didn't want you to be there.
45:41Right. It's true. It's what he decides is best for you.
45:45We don't understand that sometimes.
45:48Maybe he allowed you and Dylan to be gay so you could do this.
45:54Yes, I know. That's what I believe.
45:56So maybe that's why.
45:58Maybe if you didn't meet Dylan, if you didn't have this in plan,
46:01he would have said, okay, you're healed.
46:03But because you had great air.
46:05Yeah. It's true.
46:07I don't know.
46:11There's no doubt in my mind there's God in this place.
46:14Oh, yes.
46:20Well, when Craig and I both went into this, we didn't know each other,
46:24but I can say it's been a real joy to get to know you, Craig.
46:30How I summed him up, he can close his ears,
46:33was a big line with no teeth.
46:37Does that mean I'm getting old or something?
46:39No. I didn't call you an old lion.
46:42I said a big line with no teeth.
46:44We've grown to love each other in a deep way.
46:49We really have.
46:51And we have a total respect for one another.
46:53Opposing views, mind you.
46:55He still thinks that I'm a sinner.
46:57We're all sinners.
46:59That's what I was just going to say.
47:01We're all sinners.
47:06I'll keep it brief even though I'm Pentecostal.
47:09I felt like I was in a Pentecostal church anyway, so this is great.
47:13Speaking in tongues and people hitting the floor,
47:16I felt like I was at home. You guys did that for me.
47:20Absolutely. Absolutely.
47:24Now, I want to make one thing crystal clear.
47:26The reason I came on to this was to also let people know
47:30that there is those on the Christian right like me
47:33that don't have an ounce of hate in their body.
47:36We can still hold true to our principles and values
47:40because hate is not a family value.
47:42I want to let you know that I love all of you.
47:45I've said it before and I agree with Dylan.
47:47God does not make junk.
47:54And I'll tell you,
47:58the river of God was flowing into this house tonight.
48:04And I'm leaving tonight.
48:06I'm going back to Calgary tomorrow morning, I should say.
48:09And I want to thank Dylan and Vinny for their hospitality.
48:13Folks, I felt like I had a holiday.
48:15I was tired and worn before I came.
48:17And I feel lifted up and, you know, good friends.
48:22Both of you. I love you both.
48:28We've got a lot of work to do yet.
48:30I know. I'm sure I do.
48:45I love you.
49:08I'm looking forward to getting home and holding my kids
49:11and going, man, I'm privileged.
49:13I'm privileged to be in a relationship where I can have kids.
49:16That's, if anything, that's a great thing to get from this
49:21because I'm going back and my marriage is stronger because of it.
49:24The people who are going to see you, Dylan and Vinny,
49:26are just the same as everybody else.
49:28We're really no different.
49:30And we just want to live a normal, peaceful life.
49:35I am a follower of Jesus Christ to the T,
49:39where you love the sinner, hate the sin.
49:42I came to them with love to tell them my position.
49:44I still feel homosexuality is a sin,
49:46and I still feel same-sex marriage is wrong.
49:48I'm not magically all of a sudden for a gay marriage. I'm not.
49:52And I personally think that Craig did change his mind,
49:55but he can't admit so because of who he's representing.
49:58He acknowledged in this church that we are Christians,
50:04and that is huge.
50:06And he is going to probably get a big backlash
50:10from his community for even saying such a thing.
50:13We have a tendency, I think, as humans,
50:15to throw the baby over the bathwater,
50:18and that is we just label people as bigots
50:21who are opposed to our own opinions.
50:24And we really don't want anything to do with them, to be honest,
50:28because it's upsetting.
50:30But sitting down with him and hearing his perspective,
50:34we found that we had more we agreed on than what we disagreed on.
50:39Although they're gay,
50:42they're out there in their own way trying to reach out to society
50:45that suffered their same pain,
50:48and they're trying to bring people to Christ.
50:51So the thumbprint is they're doing good work,
50:55but they need a lot of prayer.
50:57And I'm going to continue to pray for them, as is my wife,
51:00that maybe they go on the narrow path a bit more.
51:09Jesus Hasn't Given Up On Me Just Yet
51:14Jesus Hasn't Given Up On Me Just Yet
51:19Jesus Hasn't Given Up On Me Just Yet
51:24Jesus Hasn't Given Up On Me Just Yet
51:29When the sun comes up in the morning,
51:32we will all be set.
51:36We can still forgive.
51:39We will still forget.
51:42I know Jesus hasn't given up on me just yet.
51:48I know that Jesus hasn't given up on me just yet.